193 - Improving Your Communication To Help Your Divorce or Custody Battle.
Leh
Meriwether: Welcome everyone.
I'm Leh Meriwether, and with me is Todd Orston. We are your co-hosts for
Divorce Team Radio, show sponsored by the Divorce and Family Law firm of
Meriwether & Tharp. Here, you will learn about divorce, family law, and from
time to time, even tips on how to save your marriage if it's in the middle of a
crisis. If you want to read more about us, you can always check us out online
atlantadivorceteam.com. Well, Todd, let's get going.
Todd Orston: All right, I'm ready.
Leh
Meriwether: What are we
getting going on?
Todd Orston: What do you mean by that?
Are you saying that I don't know what the show is about? I mean, I'm not
exactly sure what you're implying here.
Leh
Meriwether: No, I was trying
to say maybe you can introduce the topic today.
Todd Orston: See, the stuttering and all
that, I mean, you feel guilty about something. I can tell. I take offense at
... No, I don't. I don't actually. Actually, the show is about effective
communication in the midst of a divorce or custody battle. Too often we have
seen what is said and what is heard. There is a vast Grand Canyon like divide
between those two. Absolutely, I'm really excited about this show. We've talked
about it indirectly in other shows, but doing an entire show on this, I can't
tell you, if people could learn how to be patient and how to apply a filter
that doesn't always assume the worst in terms of what is being said, so many
problems in these divorce and custody cases would be resolved or avoided.
Todd Orston: By the way, sometimes your
radar in terms of what is being implied is correct. I'm not saying that you
shouldn't be on the lookout for somebody truly trying to imply something
negative, but very often, it's just not there, yet people assume that it is,
and that turns into a fight.
Leh
Meriwether: Today, we're
going to break down ... There was a doctor, his name was David Berlo, that came
out with a basic communication model. The initials for it are SMCR. You know
what that means, Todd?
Todd Orston: I do.
Leh
Meriwether: A source sends a
message through a channel that is interpreted by a receiver, so very basic.
We're going to break down today the source, we're going to break down the
message, the channel, and the receiver, and what that means at each level,
where there's often breakdowns, and we're going to focus on divorce because
divorce adds a whole nother layer to it, and then what you can do to improve
really the first three, because those are the ones that are in your control.
The receiver, not as much. If you can do the first three right, then that will
increase your odds of the receiver receiving a message that you intended, the
same message.
Leh
Meriwether: The channel is
the method in which it's delivered, the message. But to give you an idea, just
before we can get to the complexity that divorce adds to communication, I'm
going to just give you an example of how just different channels of
communication can deliver the same sentence differently. Let's say a text
message goes out that says, I didn't say you stole the keys. That's all the
message is. That can be interpreted any number of ways by the receiver. But if
you were to say that personally, or at least by over telephone, your inflection
can change the meaning of that very sentence.
Leh
Meriwether: Here's an
example, I didn't say that you stole the keys. I didn't say you stole the keys.
I didn't say you stole the keys. I didn't say you stole the keys. Depending on
what word you emphasize when you're communicating can change the interpretation
of the same exact sentence. That was one, two, three, four different ways that
sentence can be interpreted depending on the inflection that I gave a single
word inside that sentence.
Todd Orston: Right. Again, according to
Berlo's model, there's the encoding, how is the message given? And then there's
that decoding, how is it received? Depending on, in essence, there are a number
of factors, communication skills, attitude, knowledge, a whole bunch of other
things, that if the receiver is using, I'm just going to use this term, which
is not Berlo's term, but it's probably incorrect, but if the filter that that
recipient is using is not a positive type of filter, then I did not say you
stole the keys.
Todd Orston: Well, what you're saying is
somebody stole the keys. I didn't say it, but maybe some other people are
saying it. I didn't say that you stole the keys. Hey, they're gone. I don't
know if it's somebody that you had steal the keys on your behalf, but the keys
are gone. I didn't say you stole the keys. You may have
"misappropriated" them. You may have taken them from where I placed
them, or I didn't say that you stole the keys, you stole a whole bunch of other
stuff, but I didn't comment on the keys. If my filter is sort of that negative
filter, depending on how you say it, I can interpret it in a very negative way,
no matter what word you stress.
Todd Orston: It's funny, what we're
reading from and the example you can see online, the one that you just read,
Leh, the words in question that are stressed are bolded. They are underlined.
In an email, especially if we're talking about written communications, that
doesn't happen. You're not bolding, I did not say you stole the keys. I did not
say that you stole the keys.
Leh
Meriwether: Especially in a
text message, because I don't think you can bold ... I don't think you can bold
a text message. Let me jinx at the future, but right now-
Todd Orston: Right. You have to
understand that when you're writing this, then the recipient, when they are
decoding, they're going to apply their own bolding. They're going to interpret
it in the way that they think they need to, or should interpret that statement.
Leh Meriwether: We often have these problems in
ordinary situations, and by the way, we're going to, if I didn't already say
it, we're going to break down each one individually, source, message, channel,
receiver. We're going to go into each one of those. But before we do, because
we want to focus on divorce and custody battles, Todd, what kind of things ...
What makes communication in the context of a contested legal case, what makes
it even worse?
Todd Orston: The fact is you're dealing
with high emotion. We've said this time and time again, we don't have to say
it, especially to anybody who's either been through it or is going through it.
You're dealing with a situation where the person on the other side with
somebody, at one point you trusted implicitly. They were your partner in one
way or another, and now you are at odds. Now, unfortunately, there may be a
level, could be a high level, medium, whatever, of distrust, but emotions are
running high. Oftentimes, especially if you're in the middle of litigation or
heading into litigation, or even to be perfectly honest, post litigation,
depending on what that litigation look like, unfortunately, there are going to
be trust issues.
Todd Orston: So, you have people that
are just going to have that negative filter and assume the worst, assume that
what is being implied somehow hurts you, and therefore, instead of just
accepting it, you retaliate or you have to respond, and usually, the response
is an aggressive response.
Leh
Meriwether: All right. That
high emotion kicks in that filter where you automatically, assuming everything
the other person says is coming from a negative point. That response is often
from the point of, I have to win. We're in a contested case right now. I have
to show the other side is wrong and so I have to prove my point, and so that
causes things to escalate. Things turn from talking with the other person to
talking at the other person and we stop listening to understand, and instead,
we're listening merely to prepare our counter-argument.
Leh
Meriwether: That's where
we'll often lose the ability to go, oh, wait, oh, that ... You mean this? You
weren't trying to prove a point or argue something. You were just trying to
relay, hey, your keys are missing. You're asking if I've seen them. You weren't
meaning that I may have taken them or stolen them. You just want to know where
the keys are. Personally, I had to-
Todd Orston: I think you took the keys.
I'm just saying that I ... I'll be honest with you, I don't trust you. I'm I'm
just putting this out there for all. I don't trust you around my keys.
Leh
Meriwether: Well, your keys
are very pretty.
Todd Orston: Well, thank you. Thank you.
It's a unicorn.
Leh
Meriwether: A unicorn. Oh
boy. Of course, as this conversation is being recorded, there's always that
fear that your conversation is being recorded, and so that impacts what you are
saying and how you are taking things, and then attorneys get involved and
things get expensive. When we come back, we're going to break down what it
means to improve your communication. How can you improve your communication in
the midst of a divorce?
Leh
Meriwether: I just wanted to
let you know that if you ever wanted to listen to the show live, you can listen
at 1:00 AM on Monday mornings on WSB. So, you can always check us out there as
well.
Todd Orston: Better than counting sheep,
I guess. Right? You can turn on the show and we'll help you fall asleep.
Leh
Meriwether: There you go.
Todd Orston: I'll talk very softly.
Leh
Meriwether: Welcome back,
everyone. This is Leh and Todd, and we are your co-hosts for Divorce Team
Radio, a show sponsored by the Divorce and Family Law firm of Meriwether &
Tharp. If you want to read more about us, you can always check us out online,
atlantadivorceteam.com, and if you want to read the transcript of this show, or
go back and listen to it again, you can always find us at divorceteamradio.com.
Okay. Today, we are talking about effective communication in a divorce or
custody battle. I mean, communication can be very difficult as it is.
Leh
Meriwether: What we're doing
is we're breaking down the really a communication model, or using it almost as
a structure for this show. Dr. Berlo, yes, Berlo came up with this
communication model. The initials are SMCR, so a source sends a message through
a channel that's interpreted by a receiver, and so we're breaking down each
one. We're going to start with source. In the last segment we talked about how
divorce, or any contested custody battle, or legal battle really makes
communication much more difficult because of several factors that can impede
good communication.
Leh
Meriwether: Let's start with
the source. The source is you, so if you are starting a conversation, or you're
getting ready to send a message, you're the source of that message, and what can
influence what you put in that message is your communication skills, your
attitudes, your knowledge, and your personal story. So, your personal story
includes the life events that have happened to you that can impact how you
communicate and the culture you were brought up in.
Leh
Meriwether: By way of
example, if you came from a family where yelling was perfectly a normal form of
communication, and just everybody just tended to yell at each other, then you
might think you're talking in a normal tone, when your spouse, in a divorce
case, the judge thinks you're actually yelling, so that can create a problem,
even though you're not thinking you're being aggressive, everybody around you
thinks you.
Todd Orston: Yeah. We see that quite
often where when we step back and we look at communications, what happened,
it's like, well, it's definitely aggressive, but is it abnormal for that
person? It doesn't mean it's right, don't get me wrong. There are just some
people, to your point, that are wired a certain way, and it could be due to
life experience. Basically, it's learned behavior, right? I mean, if that's the
way they were raised.
Todd Orston: Unfortunately, we see these
kinds of communication breakdowns, especially when a relationship is ending and
people are going through, or about to go through these kinds of cases, where
that kind of a communication method or style, oh, it creates enormous problems,
and I've seen judges get really upset because they'll listen to it and they'll
be like, that's unacceptable on any level. Then that can impact your case.
Leh
Meriwether: Yup. Let's say
you are a normal ... I don't want to say what's normal and what's not, but
let's say you communicate in a normal, calm patient tone, but because of the
divorce, stress gets in the middle of it, and you feel like, Oh my gosh, I
mean, all this money is on the line. My time with my children's on the line,
and maybe you're angry about the process, maybe you're worried about it. All
those things can influence how you communicate, how you, when you communicate,
you may be louder than you normally would be.
Leh
Meriwether: Or perhaps you're
shorter. Maybe you don't give enough information. Maybe you're the kind of
person that kind of shuts down when the pressure gets really on, and that could
be a problem too, especially when you need to tell the judge, or you need to
tell your lawyer, or the judge in a courtroom, this is what I want and here's
why I want it, but maybe you have trouble communicating that because the stress
is causing you to shut down. So, it can go either way. You could maybe say too
much or too little.
Todd Orston: Yeah. Here's something that
I say to people all the time, and I say it for two reasons. One is just because
it's the right thing to do. Two, I say it because as an attorney and as
somebody who is responsible for representing my client to the best of my
ability and making sure that they have the information they need to make good
choices and to act in a way that isn't going to make them look bad. I will tell
people all the time, sort of like those criminal law Miranda warnings that
police give to people.
Todd Orston: Everything you say can and
will be used against you. So, you need to go into every communication thinking
that my words, whether they're written, whether they are spoken, that they can
be collected and presented to a court at some appropriate time and they could
be used against you, and I will tell people all the time, you have to rise
above it, and sometimes that is the hardest near impossible thing to do, but I
will often tell people, I don't care if they call you every name in the book.
If they do that, politely say, I'm not going to put up with this, I'm not going
to be treated that way. We'll talk when you're calm. Thank you very much.
Goodbye.
Todd Orston: Then if you were recorded,
then you took the high road. If you're recording that conversation, if you're
in a jurisdiction where recording is permissible, Georgia, you can, then-
Leh
Meriwether: If you're a party
to the conversation.
Todd Orston: If you're a part of the
conversation. That's what I mean. Then basically, you have that recording where
you can say, look, I'm trying to co-parent or I'm trying to deal with these
issues. This is how I'm treated. You have to be very careful, and again, for
more reasons than one, try to rise above.
Leh
Meriwether: We're going to
get into a model that you can follow when sending a message to make sure you're
not putting the wrong information in your message. We're going to get to that
in the next segment. Some people are going okay, but I never worked on my
communication skills before, maybe that's why I'm getting a divorce, but I'm in
the middle of a divorce now, what can I do to communicate better? Well, the
first thing I would say is, hey, you're listening to this show, so you're already
taking the right step. Congratulations.
Leh
Meriwether: But I mean, the
fact that you're listening to the show is good. That means you're trying to
learn. That's the number one thing you can do. I mean, communication at the end
of the day is a skill. Some people may have a better talent, and perhaps, but I
still see communication, at the end of the day, is a skill that can be
developed, it can be grown and ...
Todd Orston: Or modified.
Leh
Meriwether: Or modified.
Todd Orston: Because you may be a good
communicator, but now you're dealing with stresses you never dealt with before,
and therefore you have to relearn communication in terms of a skill in the
context of now you are dealing with a divorce or a custody matter, but you are
now dealing with this kind of a situation that you've never had to deal with
before.
Leh
Meriwether: Exactly. One of
my favorite books I've mentioned on multiple shows is called Crucial
Conversations. It is a fantastic book. We are not going to go into that book in
the show, but I strongly recommend you read that book. It doesn't just apply to
a marriage. Let's put this way. If you read that book, you'll be able to apply
it to your relationship with your children, to your relationship with your
boss, your employees, your potential customers. It is something that will apply
at multiple levels. It is a very valuable book, and then attitude.
Leh
Meriwether: We've talked
about attitude. Your attitude in your case will absolutely influence, not just
verbal communication, but nonverbal communication, because that can really come
across in a courtroom. We're not going to go into all that about attitude. In
fact, we did a whole show just about attitude, and I think it was ... how
attitude is your secret weapon in your divorce. I think it was episode 120. I'd
strongly recommend listening to that show to understand, but perhaps you're
still struggling.
Leh
Meriwether: I don't know what
to do. That's what counselors are there for. You basically, at that point, you
go to a counselor, not just to deal with the stress, but to help you, and
there's counselors that are also life coaches. I know psychologists that are
sort of like coaches too, and they work with you to, maybe you're a great
communicator, but in the context of this divorce, like you said, Todd, the
stress is causing you to just break down. You can't communicate effectively. A
counselor can help you with that, and you're going to need that.
Todd Orston: I agree 100%, and I'm going
to take it a step farther. Not only are they important, but I would tell you,
for instance, you yourself could get a counselor. If the relationship hasn't
soured, suggest maybe the two of you going to a counselor, even if you're going
through a divorce. If you have children, there are parenting coordinators,
there are people out there who take on this role of trying to facilitate a
healthier relationship for you and that other parent, or whatever the situation
is. I will even take it a step further.
Todd Orston: There are situations where
if you see the relationship, which of course, we're talking again, the context
of a relationship that's ending, but if you still have to have that working
relationship with somebody i.e., you're co-parents, and you see it down
sliding, you see a souring of that relationship, offer some kind of a
counselor. Offer, hey, I'll go. If the other side even says to you, "Well,
I don't want to pay for that," you may even want to sit. I don't know what
your financial situation is. You may want to even think and go, "Fine,
I'll pay for it." That's how important it can be.
Todd Orston: Think of it this way. If
you have to pay, I'm just using a number, $200 to go see a counselor, what's
better? You paid $200, or you pay $2,000 to an attorney because the
relationship got so bad that unfortunately you're at each other's throats.
Leh
Meriwether: When we come
back, we're going to continue to break this down and get into the other three
aspects of the communication channel.
Todd Orston: Hey, everyone. You're listening
to our podcast, but you have alternatives. You have choices. You can listen to
us live also at 1:00 AM on Monday morning on WSB.
Leh
Meriwether: If you're
enjoying the show, we would love it if you could go rate us in iTunes or
wherever you may be listening to it, give us a five star rating, and tell us
why you liked the show.
Leh
Meriwether: Welcome back,
everyone. This is Leh and Todd, and we are co-hosts for Divorce Team Radio, a
show sponsored by the Divorce and Family Law firm of Meriwether & Tharp. If
you want to read more about us, you can always check us out online,
atlantadivorceteam.com. If you want to read a transcript of this show or
others, you can always find them at divorceteamradio.com. Well, today we're
talking about effective communication, especially as it applies in a divorce.
Leh
Meriwether: We're breaking
down a model that talks about the communication, and that there's a source that
generates a message that goes through a channel, and then is received by a
receiver, and we were talking about, so you're the source. This is one thing
you can actually control, and there's just a few more points we wanted to add
to this that can influence the message that you draft, and then we're going to
get right to the message part of it. Okay, so another thing that influences
your ability to communicate is knowledge on the subject, because when you don't
understand a subject, you can say something that the other person goes
"Well, that's just stupid."
Leh
Meriwether: Because you just
are being ignorant of it or whatnot. So, in the context of a divorce and
co-parenting, listening to the show improves your knowledge, reading books
about the divorce process, reading our website. You don't have to read our
website. I'm just giving examples, and going to a co-parenting coordinator,
like Todd you just talked about, going together, or even you can go by
yourself. That improves your knowledge so that you understand that ... You
could say a sentence that in your head makes perfect sense, but in the context
of what you're going through can sound stupid to the other person, but you
wouldn't have a clue of that until you talked to your co-parent coordinator.
Leh
Meriwether: Or even in some
situations, your lawyer too. That's where I wanted to add this one last part,
that your life story can influence you. It's hard to look at your communication
in the mirror sometimes. That's where you need wise counsel around you. That
could be your lawyer, your counselor, your real friends. Those real friends by
meaning those that aren't afraid to tell you the truth, and you're going to
need to listen to them because they may tell you something you don't want to
hear.
Todd Orston: Yeah, and it may not be the
person that just got done with a two year litigation where they went for the
juggler. We've done shows on this. You have to choose wisely, and you don't
want somebody who's been through it. You want somebody who navigated through a
similar situation, who's going to be able to inject some reason and calm. If
you have somebody who is all spit and vigor, they are just oh, take them to
this and aargh. That's good for maybe a Friday evening where you just need to
blow off some steam. Other than that, you need somebody who is going to be
calm, who's going to really help you analyze the situation and help you avoid
making a mistake that could seriously affect you.
Todd Orston: It could affect your
custody rights, it could affect property rights and any other issues. Just be
careful who you choose.
Leh Meriwether: Yep. It's interesting, you talk
about blowing off steam on Friday evening because I'm going to leave this last
little tip here, that often we are worn out by the end of the day. There's
actually whole books about this, about how your willpower gets burned up by the
end of the day. I can't remember if we had a whole show on this, but we could
do a whole show on it.
Todd Orston: We spoke a lot about ego-
Leh
Meriwether: It's called ego
depletion. Yeah.
Todd Orston: Ego depletion. Right.
Leh
Meriwether: There's actually
a book out there about willpower by Dr. Baumeister, I think is his name, but
anyways, and The Power of Habit talks about it too. There's a lot of books ...
Here's the key takeaway, and you can go read about why you should do this. You
should avoid communicating in the evenings when you're tired. You don't have
enough willpower to filter your message. We're going to get into that in just a
second, and then emotions will quickly kill good communication. It is better to
communicate in the morning than the evening, because you have not exhausted
your willpower from during the day.
Leh
Meriwether: If you're in a
bad spot in the evening and the person's insisting on a response and it's not
something like, hey, can you pick up the kids in the morning? It's not
something like that, walk away. Maybe just say, "Hey, I'm really tired,
but I will respond to you in the morning." Respond by saying, I'm going to
respond to you, but don't engage in whatever the issue is. Now, let's get into
the message.
Todd Orston: Where the proverbial rubber
meets the road. Look, we started the show by talking about the message. It's
oftentimes not just what you say, but how you say it. We have spent a lot of
time over the years talking about that, talking about how communication,
actually there are studies that even nonverbal communication is far more
impactful than what you say. So, you have to be so, so careful about how you
word something, how you deliver a message, because even when you're trying to
do the right thing, and I've suffered from this, where I'm like, I am really
reaching across the aisle, I'm really trying to do the right thing. And the
response I get, I'm like, wow, I didn't realize I was conveying that message.
You have to be really, really mindful.
Leh
Meriwether: Yup. We're
actually going to have a whole show about the message. We won't go into this in
total detail, but we do have Bill Eddy, and he's not only, I think he's an
attorney, he's also a licensed clinical social worker, and he's written some
absolutely amazing books on communication in the context of a legal battle, as
well as dealing with high conflict personalities. I don't know how many books
he's written now.
Todd Orston: He sold one or two copies.
It's not that ... More like millions and millions in many different countries.
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah, we're
lining him up to come on to talk about one of his most recent books.
Todd Orston: He's been on before.
Leh
Meriwether: He's been on
before. His book I think is BIFF, and I'll explain what BIFF means in a minute.
BIFF for Co-Parent Communication: Your Guide to Difficult Co-Parenting Texts,
Emails, and Social Media Posts. We're going to go into more detail on that, but
his model for BIFF is a great model. So, it stands for brief, informative,
friendly, and firm. The channel is ... We're going to get into that next.
Sorry, I'm not trying to deviate communication problems.
Leh
Meriwether: We'll analyze the
BIFF here, an example. Sometimes we, I'm not kidding, literally seen messages
like this. You're allying dirt bag who does not deserve to see his kids. That
was in response to a question. So, the question was, hey, can I pick the kids
up on Thursday at 5:00? And that was the response.
Todd Orston: That's pretty positive.
[crosstalk 00:30:18]. Yeah, personally, I don't see what's wrong with that.
Leh
Meriwether: Well, it wasn't
informative.
Todd Orston: [crosstalk 00:30:27].
Leh
Meriwether: It expressed an
opinion that he didn't deserve to see his kids, but it definitely wasn't
friendly, but it was firm. It was firm. So, he got two of the four things. But
a better response would be, it's my understanding you have asked to see the
kids Thursday at 5:00, but judge's order says that you're to get the kids on
Friday at 5:00 and that we are not to deviate from the order, so I cannot agree
to that. She didn't call him any names. She kept it very informative. She
referenced the order. She didn't reference that in you're a moron because the
order says this.
Leh
Meriwether: She was brief.
That's the brief part. She was friendly, and she was firm. Sometimes people go,
if I'm friendly, I can't be firm. No, she was friendly. She didn't call any
names. She started off by acknowledging the request, and she just said, "I
can't agree to that." She kept it very simple.
Todd Orston: Well, I mean like the
example, she could have started with listen, respectfully, I'm just asking you
not be a dirt bag. See, you're delivering. You can see, I mean, how could
anyone be offended by that? It's again, not what you say, but how you say it.
I'm here to help.
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah, sometimes
that term respectfully just doesn't work.
Todd Orston: Yeah. I don't really even
know what a dirt bag is. I got to look that up after the show, where that comes
from, but okay. The use of the word dirt bag in any context is probably not
positive. But again, just be careful. If you want to have a healthy
relationship, it starts with you, and it's not just, well, I didn't start it.
Okay, but you can also do things to try and deescalate. If you call someone a
dirt bag, even if they are, I get it.
Todd Orston: But even if they are, you
can try to deescalate. Don't call them a dirt bag. Just try and take that high
road, because in the long run, that's going to benefit you.
Leh
Meriwether: Exactly. I want
to add this one little thing, and then we're going to in the next segment.
We're going to talking about the channel and the receiver. Just like you don't
want to communicate when you're angry, you probably don't want to communicate
when you feel sad, or you're overwhelmed by sadness or overwhelmed by guilt
because we've seen people agree to things they never should have agreed to. If
you are in one of those emotional states, don't send a message that basically
gives away the firm. Let your lawyer communicate for you so that you don't make
a big mistake. When we come back, we're going to talk about the importance of
the channel and the receiver.
Leh
Meriwether: I just wanted to
let you know that if you ever wanted to listen to the show live, you can listen
at 1:00 AM on Monday mornings on WSB, so you can always check us out there as
well.
Todd Orston: Better than counting sheep,
I guess. You can turn on the show and we'll help you fall asleep.
Leh
Meriwether: There you go.
Todd Orston: I'll talk very softly.
Leh
Meriwether: Welcome back,
everyone. This is Leh and Todd, and we are co-hosts for Divorce Team Radio, a
show sponsored by the Divorce and Family Law firm of Meriwether & Tharp. If
you want to read more about us, you can always check us out online,
atlantadivorceteam.com, and if you want to read a transcript about this show or
others, you can always find them at divorce teamradio.com. Well, today we're
talking about effective communication, especially as it applies in a divorce or
contested custody battle, and we've been breaking down the different aspects of
communication.
Leh
Meriwether: There's a source,
that's you, that sends a message, and through a channel that is ultimately
received by the person you intend to receive it, well, hopefully intended to
receive it. This is our last segment, and we're going to talk about the channel
... Now, the reason we left so little time on the receiver, just because you
don't have a whole lot of ... These first three ones are what you have the most
control over, and if you can do the most in these first three parts of the
communication, then you improve the chances of the receiver receiving the
message in a positive way and understanding your message in the way you
intended.
Leh
Meriwether: Okay. With
technology, Todd and I have put together sort of what we consider a hierarchy
of communication. This is the channel. When you talk about channel, you're
talking about the five senses, hearing, seeing, touching, and smelling, and
even tasting. I know that sounds weird, but the more of those you can have,
with some exceptions, Todd, I'm sure will point them out, with some [crosstalk
00:35:43]
Todd Orston: Yeah, I don't want know
you, so absolutely.
Leh Meriwether: But I mean, with some [crosstalk
00:35:52]. The more you have, the better the opportunity to communicate well.
It starts off with verbal in-person because there's ... You can have positive
body language or negative. Then there's verbal with like a FaceTime or a Zoom
call where you can see the person, but there's no taste, there's no smell,
which could be a good thing. Then you have plain old verbal with a phone call,
and then you have written email and then text. To me, text is the lowest, is the
one of the worst forms of communication because it's often too short. You can
respond to it quickly, which often is a mistake, as we referenced before.
Leh
Meriwether: Written email
takes a little bit longer. You don't automatically check it. People aren't
expecting an immediate response to it. So, those sort of the different channels
as we see them and the reasons why one's better than another.
Todd Orston: Yeah. Now, there are
dangers with, or potential issues, not dangerous with each of them though.
Anything that includes visual, whether it's an in-person or zoom calls, some
kind of video conferencing, well, obviously then those nonverbal cues become
incredibly important. You're talking to somebody and they roll their eyes, or
they just gesture in a way that in some way makes it appear as though they're
just not hearing you, they're sort of minimizing your concerns, or whatever the
issues are that you're trying to present.
Todd Orston: But if let's say you have
just verbal where it's an auditory, where you don't see the other person, well,
at that point, you still have dangers. Did you huff? Did you make some kind of
a noise? Did you, of course say anything that can be taken the wrong way?
Because those non ... Or pardon me, those other behavioral traits, if I looked
at Leh and I said, "You're looking good." Well, absolutely, that's
great.
Todd Orston: But if we were in front of
one another and I say, "You're looking good," and I rolled my eyes,
he'd be like, you're a jerk. I'm working out. What are you ... When it's a
visual thing, you to be careful in how you move and things. If it's just
auditory, you still have to be careful, and then when it comes to writing, you
hit the nail on the head. I mean, an email, oftentimes people take a little bit
more time. Sometimes not as much time as they need. On a text, it's just
immediate it's boom, boom, boom, send, boom, boom, boom, send.
Todd Orston: Oftentimes, people aren't
using full sentences and all that, and therefore you are leaving it up to that
other person to interpret what you're trying to say, and oftentimes the
interpretation is just incorrect, and people expect the worst and it creates
problems.
Leh
Meriwether: Yep. I do like
texts to just say, what time does ... I didn't get the email or I can't find
the email about the change to soccer practice [inaudible 00:39:29]. When does
it start? Then the person texts back, it starts at 4:30 today.
Todd Orston: Yeah. But if-
Leh
Meriwether: That's what you
should use texts for.
Todd Orston: Yeah, if you start the text
with, hey, dummy, where do you send that message about pickup times? Obviously
that's ... Some fireworks will ensue.
Leh
Meriwether: Right. Going back
to the in-person, how that can be the most effective, because I'm a very ... I
like to, when I communicate, I use my hands, my arms. One of the shows we did,
didn't you have a study where it talked about how something like 80% of the-
Todd Orston: It's even more. Yeah. If I
remember correctly, it was actually like, I believe in the 90s percent in terms
of how important ... I'm sorry, go ahead.
Leh
Meriwether: Body languages.
Todd Orston: Yeah. Right. Body language
is incredibly important, and that can hurt you or help you. As a litigator who
walks into court, we are always thinking about that. Where are we standing? How
are we gesturing? What are our facial expressions like? How many times have I
turned to a client sitting next to me and they're rolling their eyes at what's
being said, and I say, stop it, enough? You're being observed by the court and
you can't do that. Just listen and you'll have your moment to explain.
Absolutely, it's important.
Leh
Meriwether: I know this may
sound weird, but it actually is critical. How many people have been talking to
someone and they're probably relaying some great information in a very
effective way, but you can't hear anything because their breath is so bad. It
smells so bad. You're like, whoa, whoa, gosh, man, that's a bad breath. What
the heck for lunch? That's where, going back, how in-person could be negative
potentially, and so when you are having an important conversation, I know that
may sound weird, but some people don't think about it. Just make sure you, I
don't know, chewed some gum, brushed your teeth. I know that may sound ... Did
you just come from a lunch where you had lots of garlic before your meeting?
Todd Orston: Now, if the person you're
about to talk to loves Italian food, I have no problem. Have a bag with Italian
food sitting right there. Let them smell it. [crosstalk 00:41:53] them into a
good mood.
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah. That's an
excellent point. I mean, that's why the, talking about the five, how the
channel includes the five senses, often you can have ... The information can be
taken better if it's taken over a good meal that both people like the smell of
the meal, the tastes of the meal puts you in a good mood. It's [crosstalk
00:42:17] easier to take some bad news.
Todd Orston: If I had a nickel for every
time a little marinara behind the ear, absolutely. I have reached some
fantastic settlements just a little bit of Italian sauce.
Leh
Meriwether: Well, I mean, and
we often make sure we have some good food and mediations to help the case
settle.
Todd Orston: That's right.
Leh
Meriwether: All those things
can play into it, and so be cognizant of your communication. The channel that
you're using to communicate, if you can avoid text, avoid it. Verbal we find to
be best. Again, well, let me ... There are exceptions to the rule. This is
going to blend over to the receiver. Sometimes there's been family violence.
Sometimes you have maybe the person as a yeller. I mean, and the other person
really shuts down. In that situation, yeah, then you've got to do written, I
hate to say it, but written email's better. Written email's better, texts may
be better. I still prefer email over texts. Slow down to write it.
Leh
Meriwether: Take your time. I
tell people to write it on a word document. First, because you don't want to
accidentally hit send. Make sure you follow the BIFF model. Let's briefly talk
about the receiver. That's the least part you can control. You're always the
source of what you're saying, so don't allow the receiver to cause you to start
saying things that will be used against you in court. I will say this. Crucial
conversation actually has in there some tips on when you hear certain phrases
from the receiver, those phrases can indicate the receiver's not taking it
well, what you're saying, or they're misinterpreting what you're saying.
Leh
Meriwether: So, definitely
read that book because it can help identify it, and if you're really trying to persuade,
not manipulate, let me be clear there, but try to share in a positive way your
point of view with your soon to be ex-spouse. Seeing them have negative body
language can let you know, okay, I'm not communicating this effectively. I need
to change. That comes in with crucial conversations. They have some really good
tips in there.
Todd Orston: I think you've communicated
very well.
Leh
Meriwether: Oh, well, thank
you everyone. Hey, everyone. Thanks so much for listening. If you're in the
middle of a contested case, please check out these resources and listen to our
other shows.