183 - Does My Divorce Have to Be Nasty
Leh
Meriwether: Welcome everyone.
I'm Leh Meriwether and with me is Todd Orston, we are your co-host for Divorce
Team Radio, a show sponsored by the divorce and family law firm of Meriwether
and Tharp. Here you will learn about divorce, family law, and from time to time
even tips on how to save your marriage, if it's in the middle of a crisis. If
you want to read more about us, you can always check us out online at
atlantadivorceteam.com. Well Todd, we got a darn good show today.
Todd Orston: You know what? I'm just
going to sit back. I'm not saying I doubt you, I'm not questioning what you're
saying, but proof's in the pudding, we're going to see.
Leh
Meriwether: We're going to
see.
Todd Orston: I'm sorry. Should I have
been just optimistically like, "Yes, Leh, we have a darn..." Yeah, we
actually do have a darn good show. It's interesting, it's a show that defines
something we have said in, just to be honest, in our marketing for years now.
And so, I'm actually excited, jokes aside, I'm excited about this show.
Leh
Meriwether: So kind of
surprising we haven't done one before. It was actually your idea, so that was a
great idea, Todd.
Todd Orston: So I come up with all the
good ones. Sometimes they come two and a half, three years, into the process,
but whatever, it's still a good idea.
Leh
Meriwether: So today's topic
is, "Does my divorce have to be nasty?" Because one of our taglines
is, "Divorce hurts, but it doesn't have to be nasty." Now, today's
going to be a discussion. We're going to breakdown why this is important, of
course, how we're defining nasty. Why is it so important? We're going to answer
the question. And then, we're going to talk about a lot of different scenario,
where it feels it's going to be hard not to be nasty. So we're going to break
those down, keeping your head high, and don't stooping to the level of the
other side, we're going to talk about those today.
Leh
Meriwether: But the answer to
this question can create so many different emotions and responses, that we even
had one time somebody called our office, now he was not a client of ours, he
had just apparently had heard the advertising, and he was mad. And he had
called in and said, "Divorce has to be nasty, there is no other way to
handle a divorce." And he was just angry about our advertising. And the
lady that was handling that call, I actually overheard the call, it was
interesting, she was like, "Well actually at our firm, most of our cases
are not nasty. And we do everything we can to keep them from being nasty,"
and he just kept arguing with her. Kept arguing with her. Anyways, it was
fascinating, and I've heard a lot of comments about this. And we as attorneys
do our best to keep it from getting nasty.
Leh
Meriwether: So Todd, what do
we mean, I guess first, when we say nasty, because that encompasses so many
different things?
Todd Orston: It really does. So I'm
going to start with that line that I've heard so many times over the years,
where somebody calls and says, "I'm looking for a bulldog. I'm looking for
that really strong attorney who's going to go in there and just kick butt, take
names." Okay, I understand, but to me, there's two different messages
there. There's the one, "I want somebody strong and competent."
Absolutely, that is absolutely reasonable. But in terms of a nasty divorce,
there are also those attorneys, where they bark for the sake of barking. I
don't think of them as bulldogs, as much as I think of them as those junkyard
dogs that will bark at anything.
Todd Orston: And I've had dealings with
those attorneys, where you could be calling and asking to talk about the
weather outside, and it could be pouring rain, and you're like, "Hey, it's
raining," and they're like, "No, it's not. It's not raining."
It's like, "Well yeah, look out the window, it's raining." "Oh,
it's never raining, it never rains." "Okay, we don't have to fight
about this, let's just take a deep breath." So when people call and say,
"I want that bulldog, who's going to go in and fight," what you're
really saying is, "I want that really expensive attorney, who's going to
run up the charges, and make sure I'm broke by the time this is done,"
that's basically what I hear.
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah. It's that
scorched Earth policy, "We are going to leave no stone unturned. We're
going to think of every, single, possible accusation we can think of, that we
could justify in any smidgen of a way, and throw it out there." Hurl false
accusations. Well sometimes you don't have to do that, but you can take
something that has a smidgen of truth and blow it up into something that's
completely inaccurate and very misleading, so that's the nasty.
Todd Orston: Yeah. And let me also say
this, here's an example. I once had a case... Sometimes it doesn't have to be
false accusations. Okay? But it could just be taking incredibly difficult
positions on every issue.
Leh
Meriwether: Yep.
Todd Orston: I had one, where I was in a
conference with opposing council and a judge, and we're sitting there and were
talking, and opposing council made an allegation about physical violence. Now
I'd already gotten my client's version about what had happened, and this
attorney came in and started talking as if their version was the absolute
truth. And I ultimately looked at opposing council, I said, "Look, I have
a different version," meaning my client does, "I wasn't there, you
weren't there. You're talking as if you were a fly on the wall, watching this
play out. I hear what your client is saying, but could we just move on to the
issues," right? "That's an allegation that's not really going to have
much impact on this case, and can we..."
Todd Orston: "Oh, it happened. Your
client did dah, dah, dah." And even the judge ultimately was looking at
opposing council like, "Okay, he's just trying to be reasonable. Let's
move beyond that one story, that one allegation, and let's get to the heart of
what you guys are here for." And that's what I'm talking about, where you
are fighting over everything. You think that the strategy should be throwing
everything and the kitchen sink out there, because you think it's somehow going
to impact, in a positive way, your case. And the bottom line is, if you could
fast-forward, if you could see what we've seen, and you could see how cases
start and where they end, as nasty as they want to get, most cases land
somewhere in the same area, right?
Leh
Meriwether: Mm-hmm
(affirmative).
Todd Orston: Unless, there are
behavioral problems relating to custody. You know what custody's going to look
like, you know what child support is going to look like, you know what alimony
will look like. Division of property isn't going to be much different, no
matter how nasty the case gets. It's just a matter of, "How long does it
take for you to stamp out that emotional fire, so that you can start focusing
on the real issues?", and that's really what we're talking about.
Leh
Meriwether: And sometimes
I've even seen cases where you look at the... Let's say there was a case where
both parties were reasonable, that doesn't mean they didn't have positions that
they held firm on, but they were reasonable about it. They were vigorous in
their positions, but they were not unreasonable when it came to making
compromises. When you look at that agreement, and it'd be almost the same as a
trial, and you see the judge's verdict. Because I've seen this happen before,
where you have a judge's verdict, and you had a settlement agreement, and it
was very similar fact patterns, as far as assets, income, all that stuff. And
you look at that, and the only different between these two case is, one was nasty
and there was probably $150,000.00 in attorney's fees, and the other one was
about $10,000 attorney's fees, so huge difference. But that was it, the one
just cost a lot more money.
Todd Orston: That's right.
Leh
Meriwether: Okay. So as far
as the answer to that question, the answer, "Does my divorce have to be
nasty?" As far as it concerns you and your actions, your behavior in the
case, the answer to that is no. You have control over your actions and your
reactions to what happens. And we're going to break down some difficult
scenarios, where people are like, "Wait, but, but, but... What about this?
What about that?", we're going to get into that in this show. And we're
going to breakdown how you can still remain, what we call nice, but firm, and
not get nasty.
Leh
Meriwether: And again, as far
as this process relates to you, because that's all you can control, you can
keep your side from being nasty. And often, what you're doing is, you're
setting the tone for the case. So perhaps the other side starts off as nasty,
but you avoid that. Divorce is very emotional, but sometimes somebody, whatever
triggered the nastiness on their end, a lot of times they'll get through. So if
you have been kind along the way, nice, but firm, you can set the stage to come
back together to settle your case, even though it may have started off really
rough.
Leh
Meriwether: And like we've
been saying, why's it so important? You save money, you may save your future
relationship with your children, because they're not caught in the middle, and
you may actually set a good foundation for a good co-parenting relationship
after the divorce. Because we've heard a lot of cases where it was really rough
getting through the divorce, but the parents, after the divorce, once that process,
where they were butting heads, went away, they were able to work great as
co-parents. And when we come back, we're going to talk about setting the right
tone, even when the other side doesn't.
Leh
Meriwether: I just wanted to
let you know that if you ever wanted to listen to the show live, you can listen
at 1:00 AM on Monday mornings on WSB. So you can always check us out there, as
well.
Todd Orston: Better than counting sheep,
I guess, right?
Leh
Meriwether: That's right.
Todd Orston: You can turn on the show
and we'll help you fall asleep.
Leh
Meriwether: There you go.
I'll talk very softly. Welcome back everyone, I'm Leh and with me is Todd, we
are your co-host for Divorce Team Radio, a show sponsored by the divorce and
family law firm of Meriwether and Tharp. If you want to read more about us, you
can always check us out online at atlantadivorceteam.com. And if you want to
see transcripts of this show and past shows, you could always go to
divorceteamradio.com.
Leh
Meriwether: Well we got a great
show today, we are answering the question, "Does my divorce have to be
nasty?" And we started by breaking down our thoughts on this, why it's so
important. And even when cases start becoming contentious, the only thing you
can do is control your side of that contentiousness. And so, one of the things
we like to say is, "You need to remain nice, but firm." There's a
difference between that and rolling over, we are not suggesting that you do not
fight for what you might get in front of a judge, we're not saying you don't do
that, but it's called nice, but firm.
Leh
Meriwether: And here's an
example, I've literally seen this, so somebody proposes an offer and you say,
"You know? I can't agree to that and here's why," and then you insert
a very rational explanation, "You're asking for money, between the alimony
and child support, that exceeds the amount of money I bring home, after I pay
my taxes and the health insurance, for me and the children, because I'm
covering that," that's a very rational answer.
Leh
Meriwether: When you get
nasty, you let the emotion take over, which is easy to do. I'm not saying what
we're suggesting is easy, what I'm saying is, it's the right thing to do. But
often, the right thing to do is hard. But sometimes people will respond with,
"F you, you slime ball, why would I ever agree to that? You must be a
complete idiot. I can't believe I ever married you." Well that's going to
elicit the wrong response, it's going to ratchet everything up, and it's going
to be more difficult to settle. But here's the great thing, and I know, Todd,
you've got a good example of how a professional should act, so the right lawyer
to hire is one that's going to help you avoid that emotional response.
Todd Orston: Yeah. And we were talking
offline and the analogy that comes to my mind is, when my wife and I were
pregnant... I was about to say, "When I was pregnant," that didn't
happen. I mean, obviously, I had the harder job of the two of us. No I'm
kidding, I am so joking. Honey, I apologize. No, but when we were pregnant with
our first child, and I'll never forget when she looked at me and she said,
"My water broke, we need to go to the hospital," and I became one of
those characters from the Dukes of Hazard. I mean, I was... I mean, the General
Lee, we were jumping canals, we were doing all sorts of crazy stuff, came
screeching to a halt, I jumped out, "She's having a baby!"
Todd Orston: And can you imagine if the
doctor came out and was as frantic as I was. I mean, if the doctor was as
caught up in that emotion, and was like, "Oh my God, she's pregnant, what
do we do? Nurse!" You know? I think, that wouldn't work out, right? As a
professional, their job is to say, "Hey, I've done this. Stay calm,"
and to ratchet things down. Well divorce attorneys, we're not delivering
babies, we're dealing with babies, we're handling cases involving babies, but
our job isn't to be as emotional as the client. Some attorneys, sometimes it's
hard, they get a little too close to that line.
Todd Orston: But I'll tell you, one more
thing, when I first started in this business, and that was many moons ago, I'll
never forget, I was at a brunch at some friend's house, and her father
practices family law in the north east, and we were talking and he was giving
me some tips, and it was great. I mean, he'd been doing it for 25 years, at
that point. And he said, "Todd, let me tell you the most important
thing." He said, "You need to control the emotion, because at the end
of the day, it does nothing but ratchet up the cost." And he said, at that
point in his career, he goes, "Todd, I'm telling you right now, I look at
my clients and I say, 'That's not going to happen here. And if it does, go find
yourself another attorney.'"
Todd Orston: And he said that he works
very hard, very diligently, to keep the emotions low. And that does not mean...
Trust me when I say, I've never seen him in court, but knowing his personality,
he's not a pushover. We know how to fight, we know how to go into court and
argue for our clients, that's not what we're talking about. We are talking
about fighting the good fight. We're not talking about just going... What I
like to say, I say it quite often is, it's that Teddy Roosevelt-y saying of,
"Walk tall, carry a big stick." It doesn't mean you're walking around
bopping everybody on the head with the stick, it means they know you have it,
they know you're ready for the good fight, but it doesn't mean you're just
walking around assaulting anybody and everybody that you can.
Leh
Meriwether: All right. So the
response back to that is often, "But Todd, you don't know my spouse. They
are going to be nasty, they're going to do this, they're going to do that.
They're hiding money." So let's break down some scenarios that we often
hear in response to that, when we say, "Hey look, we're going to take this
very methodical, matter-of-fact approach, and get to the bottom of everything
that we need to get to the bottom of." So let's write down different
scenarios, where we often hear the objections to trying to keep the divorce away
from being nasty, at least on our client's side of the equation.
Leh
Meriwether: So Todd, what if
the other side is hiding money? We're going to let them get away with that?
Todd Orston: You need to call them
names. Oh, wait a minute? I'm sorry, we're trying to... Sorry, we're
controlling the emotion, my bad. Okay. It's preformed discovery. It is one of
the most basic components of a divorce case. You are preforming discovery,
notices to produce, and interrogatories, you can do depositions, you can do requests
to admit. There are ways to get to the information. And guess what? Even if
they are acting badly, even if you ask these questions, engage in the
discovery, and they refuse to comply, well that failure to comply, you can file
a motion called, a motion to compel.
Todd Orston: So you can look to the
court, and a common theme, at least for me, and I think for both of us, is
going to be, understand you're under a microscope and the judge is looking at
everybody's behavior. So if you take that high-road and you say, "I need
these documents. You're telling me you didn't spend this money. Well okay,
there are bank records that will prove it." And if they refuse to give it,
and they're being nasty, take the high-road, because ultimately it will be in
front of the judge. And guess what? At that point, the court can sanction the
other party, and that can result in them paying fees, or it could just
influence the judge in some way that may benefit you. So you need to stay calm.
Failure to comply with those requests, that's not a time to start yelling, and
screaming, and carrying on, it's just part of the system, part of the way that
we handle these cases.
Leh
Meriwether: And there's times
where, I know we've had clients that thought the other side was hiding money.
So we said, "All right, well let's not say anything. Let's just perform
discovery, that's standard in just about every divorce." So we'd perform
discovery, we obtain the financial information. Often, we can do our own
internal analysis, but sometimes we bring in a forensic accountant, if there's
the money to pay for it, and they go through the numbers. And more times than
not, what it shows is, the parties were not aware of the amount they were
spending during their marriage. So they think, "Well he made all this
money during this course of time, where'd it all go? Why do we have nothing to
show for it?" Well, "Here's your bank statements. Here's your credit
card statements. You were spending more money than you were making every year,
that's why you owe all this money."
Leh
Meriwether: So a good lawyer,
before they start pointing the fingers and slandering the other side, they do
their own matter-of-fact investigation, then the client realizes that, "Oh
my gosh, we should've paid better attention." And then you, especially if
you have kids, then you avoid all that animosity that could carry over after
the divorce and impact your relationship with your children. So now let's flip
it for a second, "Todd, they're accusing me of hiding money, but I'm not,
we need to go on the offensive. They're sending all these discovery requests.
And so, we need to do the same thing to them," even though, the other side
doesn't really make any money.
Todd Orston: Yeah, that makes me angry.
I definitely would go back to, "I'm going to throw some sharp barbs at the
other side, and the other...", no. No, once... I have to control myself.
At that point, you say, "Give me the documents."
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah.
Todd Orston: "They're making these
accusations about improper spending, or whatever the case might be, whatever
the issue might be." "Fine, it's very simple. Get me those bank
records. Get me those statements." "Well she's saying I took a trip
with a girlfriend to Barbados." And, "No, I was there for a business
conference." "Okay, that's fine. Get me something from your company
that says that you were there, and we can do whatever we have to do to prove,
even if it's an affidavit from somebody else that was there, that's at your
company. Or something that shows that you were there alone. Meaning that you
were in that room alone."
Leh
Meriwether: And when we get
back, we'll keep breaking down scenarios like this.
Todd Orston: Hey everyone, you're
listening to our podcast, but you have alternatives, you have choices. You can
listen to us live, also, at 1:00 AM on Monday morning, on WSB.
Leh
Meriwether: If you're
enjoying the show, we would love it if you could go rate us in iTunes, or
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why you like the show.
Leh
Meriwether: Welcome back
everybody, I'm Leh Meriwether and with me is Todd Orston, we are your co-hosts
for Divorce Team Radio, a show sponsored by the divorce and family law firm of
Meriwether and Tharp. If you want to read more about us, you can always check
us out online at atlantadivorceteam.com and if you want to hear past episodes,
or read transcripts of this show and others, you can always visit
divorceteamradio.com.
Leh
Meriwether: Okay, today we're
answering the question of, "Does my divorce have to be nasty?" Now we
broke down why that's so important, to avoid it being nasty. But we're now
tackling some very practical questions. These are good questions that people
ask, and they're scenarios where the other side is getting nasty. And what we
had said before is, "All you can control is you," so if you can focus
on keeping your side of the divorce, avoiding it getting nasty, it can help set
the tone for settlements, set the tone for great co-parenting relationships.
Leh
Meriwether: But there are
some challenges to that, and I'm not denying them, it is so easy to allow your
divorce to get nasty, it really is. But by taking the high-road, you're
actually... The odds are, you are going to shorten the extent of time of your
divorce, and usually save money in attorney's fees. Okay, where were we? Oh,
when we left off you were talking about someone falsely accuses you of
adultery, and so, they ask all these questions, they send you all this
discovery. And often, the response back is, "Well, if they're going to
send all this discovery on me, we need to send the same discovery back on
them." A lot of times, that's just wasting money.
Todd Orston: Well and then, I've had
that happen before, then I've looked at my client and said, "Do you have
an actual concern that he, or she, committed adultery?" "Well no, but
this is ridiculous." "Okay, well what's more ridiculous is me
knowingly sending these demands and kinds of requests. The better strategy is,
if you're telling me it didn't happen, let them prove it." All right? In
court, it's not what you say, it's what you can prove. So they can come in and
say, "He talks to aliens and likes to..." whatever. "Okay, prove
it. Show me that, that has happened one time. No, you can't? Then enough,
okay?"
Todd Orston: And in a court, if somebody
goes in and makes an allegation, "He committed adultery, she committed
adultery." "Okay," if you have no evidence, it's just lip
service. And the court, at the end, it's going to be like, "Well nobody proved
that any adultery took place, so I'm not going to consider that."
Leh
Meriwether: Right. And a lot
of times, so the best thing to do is to just be an open book. And this is where
taking the high-road, it can be very frustrating, I think it's worth it in the
long haul, but the way you take the high-road and say, "Okay, fine, you
want all this stuff. I've got nothing to hide, because I didn't do anything
wrong. Here you go." In fact, you get it to them early, to say,
"Look, I'm not trying to hide anything." And then, when the other
side continues to do things... I love that quote from Shakespeare, "Me
thinks thou dost protest too much." Was it Hamlet?
Todd Orston: It's close. It's close. And
it sounded... I mean, you should be on stage. I mean, that was... I think... Me
thinks Shakespeare is rolling over in his grave, but I understand the point.
Leh
Meriwether: But I mean, so
that's how you still keep your side from getting nasty. By just, what I call
opening up the books, "Here you go, here's everything."
Todd Orston: Yeah. And here's another
thing that I think listeners need to think about. Let's say you did commit
adultery, just deny, deny, deny. If you spend a whole bunch of time deflecting,
and denying, and I'm not telling everyone to just go ahead and walk into that
first meeting, or the first time they ask for answers, I'm not saying you just
say, "Well in the third grade I stole some bubble gum. And in the fourth
grade, I pushed Mary." I'm not saying you need to just sort of make sure
you divulge anything and everything. But at the same time, if you deny, and
then I have to go after you... And let's say, I think it's something that's
important.
Todd Orston: An example I will use is
drug addiction. And I had a case where a client basically had a major addiction
and denied, denied, denied. And the other party spent, I can't even begin to
tell you, a tremendous amount of effort and money to prove. And in the end,
they did. And so, now the other side spent all that money, and guess what they
did? They went after fees and they got them, because the judge said, in
essence, "But for the denials, and the lies, an all of that, they wouldn't
have had to spend that money." So what I'm trying to say is, oftentimes
that bad behavior...
Todd Orston: So using as another
example, the adultery. If it turns out that there's some decent evidence that
you may have had committed adultery, and then you turn the table and just throw
all these wild accusations at the other party, if you have no evidence of that,
that could result in sanctions at the end of the case. The judge could look and
go, "Why did you send a request to admit with a hundred different
requests, and all this other discovery, and there's zero evidence that anything
like this ever happened." So you know what? All that work, you're going to
pay for it.
Leh
Meriwether: Yep. So let's
talk about, what if the other side committed... This is a very emotional thing.
So the other side committed adultery, let's say that is the truth, they really
did commit adultery, but they are denying it during the course of the
proceedings. Well from an emotional standpoint, if you've been cheated on, it's
her fault on so many different levels, but them to go on and deny it, it's even
more hurtful. And so, the first question you should ask, if you're trying to
take the high-road, "If I prove the adultery on the other side, will it
really make a difference in the outcome of my case?" And for a lot of
judges out there, depending on the situation, the answer is no.
Leh
Meriwether: And I hate to say
that, but I just see it over and over again, with a lot of judges. And not just
Georgia, but in other states. It does make a difference sometimes, so it's
important to talk to your lawyer about when it makes a difference. But if the
adultery makes no difference, then don't... If it won't make a difference in
your outcome, the best thing to do is to let it go. I know that's hard to do,
again, taking the high-road is not the easy road, but it is the best road for
your longterm relationship with this other person, if there's children
involved.
Leh
Meriwether: Now let's say it
does make a difficult. For example, in Georgia, as of the time of the recoding
of this show and in 2020, if the cause of the divorce on the other side is
adultery, that could be a barred alimony. So in that case, it would be worth it
to perform some discovery, but keep it matter-of-fact, don't let the kids even
know that this is an issue in your divorce, that's how you avoid that. You can
send questions about the adultery, but leave the children out of it.
Todd Orston: Yeah. Let me be very clear,
because that's a great point about the bar. But understand, let's say the
person who allegedly had the affair is the wife, and the wife is a stay-at-home
mom, and might potentially be, or is actually, seeking alimony. Then yes, I
agree with you, proving, or working to try and prove that adultery occurred,
because it could result in a bar, meaning the wife in that situation could not
request and get alimony, that's important.
Todd Orston: But let's flip it, what if
you're the wife and you're a stay-at-home mom, and you've been taking care of
the kids and all of that, and you believe that your husband engaged in
adultery. There's not, in Georgia, at the time of this recoding, there isn't a,
if you flip the script, there's not a punitive type of alimony like, "Oh,
well you proved that, that person committed adultery. Yeah, you get X amount,
per month." All right? Can it maybe influence a judge on something
generally speaking? Maybe. Maybe the judge doesn't like... I've heard judges
say, "There's a difference between cheating and a cheater." There's
the difference between somebody who does something, it's a mistake, they're
apologetic, and there's the person who's just that proverbial dog, who-
Leh Meriwether: That has a whole family on the
other side, or something?
Todd Orston: ... Yeah. I mean, just has
affair, after affair, and there's just no remorse. But at the end of the day,
it may not be that important for the wife in that situation, the mother in that
situation, to try and go after the evidence relating to adultery, because it's
not going to have an impact on the case.
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah. So the best
thing to do is talk to your lawyer, because there are judges, all across this
country, where an adulterous affair, to the extent that it depleted the marital
estate, can impact what's called equitable division in some states. In some of
the states, the law just doesn't support any sort of penalty for the cause of
the divorce being adultery. But in some states, it does. So there may be a
financial benefit to proving the adultery, but there may not be.
Leh
Meriwether: And then, you
have to weigh that financial benefit, with, "How much money is it going to
cost to, number one, prove it? And ultimately, what am I going to get out of
it?" And if the cost of that is going to be, you're only going to get an
extra $10,000, or $20,000, but now you're going to have the father or mother of
your children be that much angrier at you for the next 10 years, it's not worth
it. At that point, it's just not worth it. So you have to measure multiple
different factors. And when we come back, we're going to continue to break down
those factors you should be weighing.
Leh
Meriwether: I just wanted to
let you know that if you ever wanted to listen to the show live, you can listen
at 1:00 AM on Monday mornings, on WSB, so you can always check us out there, as
well.
Todd Orston: Better than counting sheep,
I guess, right?
Leh
Meriwether: That's right.
Todd Orston: You can turn on the show
and we'll help you fall asleep.
Leh
Meriwether: There you go.
I'll talk very softly.
Leh
Meriwether: Welcome back
everyone, I'm Leh Meriwether and with me is Todd Orston, we are your co-hosts
for Divorce Team Radio, a show sponsored by the divorce and family law firm of
Meriwether and Tharp. If you want to read more about us, you can always check
us out online at atlantadivorceteam.com. And checkout transcripts of this show,
and others, at divorceteamradio.com.
Leh
Meriwether: Well we've been
talking about, "Does my divorce have to be nasty?" And the answer to
that, at least from your end, what you can control, is, "No, it doesn't
have to be nasty." That doesn't mean the other side's not going to be
nasty, but we've been addressing those hard situations. "What if someone's
lying, they're claiming I'm hiding money," or, "They claimed I
committed adultery," or something. Or perhaps they even accused you of
physical abuse, and the case started with a temporary protective order against
you, and the other side gave this such compelling emotional story about how
you've always abused them, and it's not true. What do you do? How do you fight
that.
Leh
Meriwether: Well actually
there's a great book on that called Splitting, by Bill Eddy, so we're not going
to go into that in this show, because hopefully we're going to have Bill Eddy
back on, he's been on the show before. But man, you can spend a whole show
talking about that scenario. And why, actually, when you read his entire book,
you'll understand that taking the high-road on your end is the best thing you
can do in a case like that. Often, it's very counterintuitive, but when you
look at the cases, where people have done exactly that, they kept it from being
nasty on their end, they had a very successful outcome.
Leh
Meriwether: Okay, so let's
talk about... Let's spend the last part of this show talking about really the
most difficult time to keep the high-road, to keep you from getting nasty, and
that's when the kids get brought in.
Todd Orston: That's right.
Leh
Meriwether: Because that can
happen in every one of these examples, the kids get brought in. And when that
happens, it's so easy to say, "That's it, the gloves are coming off."
So, Todd?
Todd Orston: Yeah.
Leh
Meriwether: What do you do
there?
Todd Orston: Well the problem, that the
gloves are coming off, usually again, you're accomplishing exactly what you
don't want to accomplish. You taking those gloves off, oftentimes translates
into you're engaging in similar behavior, that you're being critical of for the
other party. Do you know what I'm saying?
Leh
Meriwether: Mm-hmm
(affirmative).
Todd Orston: You know? The other party
is having improper communications with the kids, and you're like, "Oh,
Heck no." You know? "That's not going to happen on my watch," so
you start having those conversations with the kids. And now, the kids are
squarely in the middle. So the absolute best advice, do not do it, don't drag
the kids into it. Now that's very similar, right? I mean, it sounds like an
overly simplistic piece of advice.
Todd Orston: But I can see somebody
saying, "Well okay, here's my question. The other party is having these
conversations, engaging in this behavior, dragging the kids into it. Am I
supposed to sit there and just accept it? Am I supposed to just let the other
party fill the kid's heads with whatever lies they're talking about and I don't
have any conversations with the kids?" No, that's not what I'm saying. But
there's a right way and a wrong way to do things. And you, just engaging in
that kind of a conversation, but from your point of view, with the kids, now
there's this emotional tug of war going on and the kids are caught in the
middle.
Todd Orston: So things that you can do?
Obviously, if those things are happening, you need to talk to your attorney, it
needs to be communicated that, that behavior has to stop. Put it in writing, so
that if ultimately it has to go in front of the court, the court sees that you
took the high-road, and you tried to put a stop to it. If it's really
significant, and significance is really in the eye of the beholder, it's just
if you feel that what is being communicated, you must address? Therapy. Think
about bringing a therapist in.
Todd Orston: If it's really, really bad,
think about filing a motion with the court, to basically have the court issue a
ruling that may limit the other party's contact with the kids, that's the worst
case scenario. But If what is being said or done necessitates some kind of a
limitation on their parenting time, then so be it. But again, all of these
types of things, the way I define it, you're taking that high-road. You're
trying to go around the kids, rather than dragging them right into the middle
of this fight. And that's what we're saying.
Leh
Meriwether: Yep. And the
other thing, so there's other avenues that you can take. So one avenue is to
hire, at a personal level, a co-parenting counselor, and work with that
counselor one-on-one. So let's say you can't get the other side to go to
co-parent counseling. Now sometimes that can be compelled, by the way, by the
court, and we've talked about that in other shows.
Leh
Meriwether: But you can get
your own co-parent counseling, to find out how to deal with that on your end.
And this goes, even after the divorce. So let's say the kids say, "Well
Daddy says you're blowing all the money and we won't be able to go to
college," or, "Mommy says that you cheated on her and you don't care
about us." So that's very painful to hear, and you want to set the record
straight, but I think Diane Dierks came on one time had talked about, a simple
answer to something like that is, "Hey, I understand how hearing something
like that would hurt your feelings. And the last thing I want to do is hurt
your feelings. What is going on between your mother and I, or your dad and I,
is between the two of us. We both love you equally, and that is all I want you
to know."
Leh
Meriwether: And she's even
given some other examples, say, "Hey, can I ask you something, how do you
think people should be judged? Is it on what they say, or what they do? If you
hear one thing, but then someone does completely the opposite, what do you
think's more important?" And most of the time, they're going to say,
"Well what they do, that's the most important." You say, "Okay.
Well all I ask you to do is just judge me on what you see me do with your own
eyes, and not what you hear anyone else say about me."
Leh
Meriwether: Because sometimes
it's third parties that say things, like an aunt, or an uncle, or a
grandparent. And they hear all those things, and they want to come talk to you
about what the grandma, or the grandpa said. Well you still don't, even though
it's not the other spouse, you still don't want to put them in there. You just
say, "Hey, judge me by what you see," and that's all you do. You
don't even say whether they're true, what happened was true or false. But
that's a boilerplate answer, that Diane Dierks has talked about before, and
she's come on this show at least twice, and I can't remember the episode numbers,
but breaking down how to address these situations, because first you have to
address the feelings.
Leh
Meriwether: You have to
confirm the feelings that the kids are feeling. Because if you blow off their
feelings, well that's a problem. But you confirm that, "Hey, you're right
to feel this way," but you're not agreeing that what caused them to feel
this way is true, you're just saying, "Hey, if I heard something like
that, I'd be upset, too."
Todd Orston: Yeah.
Leh
Meriwether: That's one option
that's high-road. But the other thing is, talk to your lawyer about filing a
motion for co-parenting counseling, or the alternative is co-parenting
coordinator, which is a little more aggressive, it's a little bit different.
Todd Orston: Yeah. I want to be very
clear, though, on something. And if I could make a joking comment about what
the allegation is, but I'll withhold the joke, simply to say, if the allegation
is one, where the child comes to you and says, "Mom said that
you...", fill in the blank. Okay? And it's latently a lie. I can tell you
right now, I don't know if I have the emotional fortitude to say, "That's
not true." Right? I mean, if it's that bad, and it's that much of a lie,
and my kids are now looking at me a little differently, because they've been
told that, in my mind, and I can understand how other people with think, in
that, "By not responding, am I confirming?" It's almost like when you
plead the 5th, right?
Leh
Meriwether: Mm-hmm
(affirmative).
Todd Orston: And by pleading the 5th,
you're not incriminating yourself, but assumptions can be made, as to the
veracity of the allegation, or the statement. So your silence speaks volumes.
So I can understand people saying, "Well hold on, I'm not just going to
sit there and let my soon to be ex-spouse say all these horrible things about
me, and not set the records straight."
Todd Orston: But even then, there is a
way, "Hey look, that's not accurate, but this is between your mother and
I, your father and I," whatever, "And we're dealing with that. So
please just understand I love you, your dad loves you, we're working through
some things, and we're obviously upset, but I'm telling you right now, that's
not accurate, but just know we love you." That kind of reaffirmation of
that love, I can tell you right now, I don't know what's right or wrong, but I
will tell you I would have a hard time not at least just addressing that issue,
at least by saying, "It's not true." So I don't know what's right.
And I'm just happy I'm not in that situation, but that would be a tough thing
to deal with.
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah. And I
guess, I mean, I have so many examples of how the parent took the high-road,
even though it was very, very difficult. And the kids, at first, were upset by
it, but over the long haul, they so appreciated the way that parent treated
them at the time. And you hear for co-parenting coordinators all the time. In
the short term it's painful, and it seems like it's the wrong thing to do, but
over the course of months and years, the kids see what's happening, and they
recognize which parent did the right thing, and which parent did the wrong
thing.
Leh
Meriwether: And sometimes
that results... Here in Georgia, a child can elect. I've seen children, later
on, elect to live with the other parents, because the other parent didn't drag
them in. And I've also seen parents not be invited to see the grandkids when
they get older. So this is very powerful, take the high-road. Unfortunately,
we're out of time. Hey everyone, thanks for listening.