The Ultimate Divorce Question – Concede or Contest 

Speaker 1 (00:08):

Welcome everyone to Divorce Team Radio, sponsored by the divorce and family law firm of Merriwether and Tharp. I'm your host, Todd Orton, and here you're going to learn about divorce, family law, and from time to time even tips on how to save your marriage if it's in the middle of a crisis. If you want to read more about us, you can always check us out online@atlantadivorceteam.com. Alright, let's get started. So I was thinking this week just about calls that I've taken and cases I've handled and two words came to mind and I started thinking about the two words and how it really goes right to the heart of divorce litigation. The two words are concession versus contention.

(01:00):

And again, the more I thought about those two words, and there are obviously so many synonyms for those words, but the more I thought about it, I was like, wow, it really does just come down to those two words and those two words that can define what your case looks like. So I started thinking about it and I'm like, well, let's talk about it. Concession versus contention. So what do they mean? Well, you look online to concede concession. It's a thing that is granted, especially in response to demands. A thing conceded contention is heated disagreement, an assertion especially one maintained in argument. Well, isn't that really what divorce litigation is all about?

(02:08):

You are in a situation, you have to negotiate a bunch of things and either you are going to contest it or concede and people struggle with those two concepts constantly and it's understandable. But does giving in or conceding really mean you're giving up? Does conceding a point show weakness? Does choosing not to fight about an issue mean you have lost? Does it mean the other side is though unquote winner? Conversely, does choosing to fight make you the winner? And I can tell you the answer to those questions is no, absolutely no. Giving up on an issue does not mean you have lost Fighting for something doesn't necessarily mean you have won. Now don't get me wrong, sometimes you have no choice but to protect yourself to take positions and hold firm.

(03:21):

But unfortunately sometimes that line is blurred the line between are you taking a position because it is legally and factually right? Or are you taking it simply because you are so influenced by a emotion that you are unable to even think about conceding any points in terms of that fight or flight response? You are 100% in fight mode, so you have to negotiate wisely. But generally the answer is to that question of are if you fight, does that make you the winner? The answer is no. Most people aren't divorce attorneys, and I could make so many jokes about that and there are probably many people out there thinking how thankful they are that they are not divorce attorneys. But what that means is that you don't have the ability to see beyond your own situation or at least it's more difficult. You're unable to see how most cases get resolved. You're unable to see common issues and pitfalls, common settlement terms. You're unable to see a reality that does not involve litigation. There are plenty of people who will call and they'll be like, oh, I want this to be uncontested. I'm not going to go off on why I don't like that term. But in essence what they're saying is that I want this to be amicable. I don't want this to turn into a big fight.

(05:02):

But then they get caught up in the emotion of the story. They have to tell about how they were treated and all of these things, and I'm not taking anything away from those stories. Some people have been treated terribly, but they get so caught up in that story that when it comes time to start talking about the terms of a divorce, they're allowing or do allow the emotion to influence the decisions they're making in the divorce negotiations. So divorce attorneys, especially those of us who have dedicated careers to divorce and family law practice, we don't get caught up in the emotion. And more importantly, we recognize patterns, patterns of behavior, how things are normally resolved, how judges may look at issues we see and recognize those patterns. And those patterns also are really what go to the heart of family law. Litigation cases involve people dealing with issues. The issues need to be resolved, the parties have different thoughts and motivations, wants and needs. Resolving those issues requires negotiation and settlement and there's not always a meeting of the minds, at least not immediately. That brings me back to patterns in negotiating settlement. Some people are able to put emotion aside and take a direct route to settlement. Others it takes longer. It might be a more stressful approach. It would be like me deciding to hike through the everglade swamp rather than take a highway on a trip to Miami.

(06:52):

It's not the easiest path, but at the end of the day, I'm going to get to that same destination. I'm still going to Miami and hopefully I don't get eaten by an alligator or one of those big snakes that lives down there. But the point is, ultimately if I make it through the swamp, I'm going to get there. But wow, that was a difficult journey. So if you're being honest with yourself, maybe you recognize that some of the delays are due to your behavior positions that you are taking or it may truly be all the other party's fault. I've seen both sides many times there's room for improvement on both sides. But regardless of who is to blame, if both parties can't be reasonable, the pattern of prolonged litigation will continue.

(07:47):

And I'm speaking this way because I don't know who's listening. If both parties in a case are listening to this show, then both of you need to be reasonable. You have to understand cases are about concession and contesting issues if you need to contest. So the question then becomes, and I don't want to get too Shakespearean here, but to concede or contest that is the question, at least it's the question for the show. So I'm going to approach this knowing that this is what the show is about. We're going to talk about cases, we're going to talk about that line that exists, that line between these two words, concession and contention, what it means to fight to protect yourself, and when have you stepped over that line where you are fighting to take reasonable positions to protect yourself and make sure you're being treated fairly.

(08:56):

When do you step over that line? And by the way, it is not a bright line, easy to see by anyone looking. The issues being dealt with in family law, I mean we live in a gigantic gray area, so much is up to the discretion of a court, which means because there's no bright line rule about division of property or alimony, child support is pretty much set by a calculation and a calculator that is based on Georgia law. But other than that, all these other issues, it could lean heavily in one favor, in favor of one party or the other. So I'm not saying that you can easily find this line between concession and contention. So I can't tell you how to settle your case, but I am telling you how to approach your case because we see the patterns. And so I want to approach this in a few ways. Next up I want to talk about the emotional side of things. How emotion can impact your approach to a case and can therefore impact the case and what the case looks like. Then I want to talk more practically. We're going to talk about some of the practicalities of if you approach it one way or the other, how is that going to impact you, how is it going to impact the case?

(10:39):

And then finally, let's talk about what can you do to try and put the emotion aside and focus on the issues to get through this as quickly as possible. Alright, when we come back, let's talk emotions.

Speaker 2 (10:58):

I just wanted to let you know that if you ever wanted to listen to the show live, you can listen at 1:00 AM on Monday mornings on WSB, so you can always check us out there as

Speaker 1 (11:08):

Well. Better than counting sheep I guess, right? That's right. You can turn on the show and we'll help you fall asleep.

Speaker 2 (11:16):

There you go,

Speaker 1 (11:16):

I'll talk very soft. Welcome back everyone to Divorce Team Radio, a show sponsored by the divorce and family law firm of Merriweather Andt Tharp. I'm your host Todd Orton, and if you want to read more about us, you can check us out online@atlantadivorceteam.com. And if you want to read a transcript of this show or go back and listen to this show or other shows, again you can find them@divorceteamradio.com. So today I'm talking about two words, concession versus contention to concede an issue or a point or to contest it

(11:53):

And it is not an easily visible line. So nothing I'm saying in the show is meant to say, Hey, there is a clear defined path in every case and that is the one you need to take. But what I am saying is that if you engage a certain way one way, it may very well be a more difficult path. And at the end of the day, going back to patterns, very often we will see parties get to the exact same destination but they have taken more difficult paths. So look, I don't know where this high road people keep telling me to take is it's not on any map. I've MapQuested high road and I can't find anything. But look, I don't know and I can't tell you in this show what the high road should look like. I understand when emotions are high it's very difficult to find that path to peace to settlement, but I can tell you even though it's not easily visible, it doesn't mean you shouldn't look for it because it's when you stop looking that the path you're on becomes most difficult. And I'm not trying to play a philosopher here, but I am saying again, I have seen clients again and again and again get caught up in cases where emotions are running very high and it is a rocky difficult path.

(13:51):

And if you fast forward, typically what happens is there becomes this emotional exhaustion where it gets to the point where the anger has subsided and while they may not be happy, conceding certain points, they're tired of contesting everything and that allows for settlement and the majority of cases settle. So when I started thinking about this more in preparation for the show, I started thinking about the emotional side of things. I mean intense emotions are what caused you to marry in the first place. So are we surprised to think that the intense positive emotions that caused you to commit your life to another could become intensely negative in a divorce? No, but in a divorce unfortunately you have to figure out a way to try and put that emotion aside.

(15:03):

As you can probably imagine, I have heard horror stories, I have heard about incredibly bad behavior by one party or the other and I understand that is baggage you are carrying into the divorce and the divorce negotiations, but I can tell you most of the time it's not going to help you, meaning allowing the emotion to impact you and it influence you. We all know that's saying it takes more effort to be mean than it does to be nice. Alright? I'm not saying trust me, I'm not saying the person opposite the table that you are divorcing that you have to be nice to them. I'm doing air quotes, you can't see it, but that saying it translates here. I may not be saying you have to be nice, but I can assure you it will take a lot more effort to negotiate reasonably and put that emotion aside than it will to throw your hands up and shut down negotiations by refusing to compromise.

(16:12):

Going back to what I was saying about that path and the destination very, very often the destination doesn't change. So talking again about patterns, I can't count how many times people rebel against a compromised position resulting in additional litigation, but in the end they reach that same place. The resolution may occur after months of litigation, but it does happen. Either they agree or they push it all the way to a judge and a judge will look to try and give some and take some basically to try and be as fair as possible. You can't concede certain points so the judge is going to do it for you. So this is sort of a more in-depth explanation of why attorneys oftentimes will say emotion will absolutely have a negative impact and it will not only make the case take much longer, but it'll be much more expensive. You can't allow the emotion to affect your ability to negotiate fairly, your willingness to negotiate. You may never want to be in the same room with the other party again, I get it, but you still need to resolve the issues and that's going to take negotiation and compromise. If you can't stand the thought of being in the same room, there are options. If you're doing things yourself, negotiate in writing, get an attorney, an attorney's going to negotiate for you and will be that buffer.

(18:00):

If you go to mediation, you can ask for separate caucusing where you can stay in different rooms. You don't have to be in the other party's presence, but the bottom line is you have to be ready and willing and able to negotiate. And when you go into those negotiations, you have to understand these negotiations are about compromise. It is about conceding certain points in return for other things. If you refuse to do that, then it's not, it's not going to be helpful. It's going to result in a lot more litigation, cost, everything. If you're caught up in that emotional maelstrom, if you can't stomach the thought of being near your soon to be ex, then it will impact you. So here's a couple of pointers and we've gone over this in shows before, but it is so worthy of repeat. Number one, therapy is incredibly helpful as with anything with the right therapist, but find the right therapist, find someone to talk with who is not going to get caught up in the emotion and who is going to help you navigate those waters.

(19:21):

I have seen like a switch being flipped a before therapy after therapy where someone starts a case, they are incredibly angry, incredibly hurt, incredibly everything, but at the end of the day it's this emotional ball of anger and frustration and sadness and you name it and it's impacting their ability to even see straight, let alone negotiate specific terms of a divorce and then they go to therapy and all of a sudden there's a level of calm, the smoke has cleared and they're able to really see the issues and negotiate in good faith. Number two, friends can be a blessing or a curse. Do not let their emotional desire to protect you and be on Team U to influence how you negotiate.

(20:21):

There are some friends and I hear the advice that they've given and I'm like, that's great, it's fantastic. And there are many times where I'm like, I don't even know what to say. I mean it is so wrong and it is doing nothing to help resolve issues. It is merely an emotional spark where the friends are basically saying, oh, you need to do X, Y, Z. And when I start thinking about what the X, y, Z actually is, my head starts to spin. I'm like, no, no, unless you're really looking for 12 months of litigation and ridiculous legal costs, no, you don't want to do that. Number three, seek assistance from a professional who can be an emotional buffer, IE an attorney because that's among many other things. What we're doing is we are becoming and acting as that emotional buffer. We're going to think about the facts, we're going to think about the four core issues, we're going to think about approaches, strategies, all of that.

(21:27):

And we're not caught up in the emotion. And if you can't hire an attorney, I understand, especially today, I know there's a lot of financial insecurity and people are concerned and everyone's watching their dollars, but there are ways to work with attorneys. For instance, if you know you're going to do this on your own, you can still schedule a consultation, you can still sit for an hour or so, ask questions, get information so that when you do things on your own, you're doing the right things. When we come back, let's talk about things in more practical terms and things you should be thinking about as you approach these discussions. We'll be right back. Hey everyone, you're listening to our podcast, but you have alternatives, you have choices. You can listen to us live also at 1:00 AM on Monday morning on WSB.

Speaker 2 (22:23):

If you're enjoying the show, we would love it if you could go rate us in iTunes or wherever you may be listening to it. Give us a five star rating and tell us why you like the show.

Speaker 1 (22:35):

Welcome back everyone to Divorce Team Radio, a show sponsored by the divorce and family law firm of Merriweather and th I'm your host, Todd Orton. If you want to read more about us, you can check us out online@atlantadivorceteam.com. And if you want to read transcripts or listen to shows, again, you can find it@divorceteamradio.com. So today we're talking about that line between concession and contention, conceding issues and being in essence willing to negotiate in good faith and contention where basically it's heated disagreement, you are taking positions and maybe you are unable or unwilling to negotiate and try and find compromise. So we've talked about that generally. I've talked about the emotional side.

(23:27):

Let's talk practical terms because I know people call all the time and they will ask, how much is this going to cost? How long will this take? And that is one of, those are some of the most difficult questions that I receive because I so desperately want to answer, but I have no idea, no attorney does. What I sometimes say to people, it's like going to a dentist and saying, Hey doc, what's it going to take to fix my mouth? And you haven't even opened it yet. They haven't looked, they haven't poked, they haven't, they haven't done anything. And what do you think the dentist is going to say? The dentist is going to say, can I look first? Can I do a little bit of work to try and understand what's going on? I don't know if your mouth, we need to do a cleaning and everything is perfect or if you have seven cavities.

(24:28):

So I've seen 25 year marriages resolved in 30 plus days and I've also seen six month marriages take a year or more and more money than you can imagine to finalize. I've had wealthy clients, affluent clients offered to pay more money, meaning in other words, they paid for fees for the work that was actually done. But because we quickly resolved what was really a complex case because everybody negotiated reasonably, one in particular great person and said, I feel bad. My first divorce, I paid so much and I feel like I'm taking advantage. And I said, no, we did our job. We kept everything calm, we focused on the issues, we got you to an agreement and we're done. All I need is the thank you.

(25:25):

And so it's not about the issues. There are some people who come and go, my case is really complex. No more than likely it's no more complex than many, many other cases that came before yours. The issue is whether or not we are going to be able to put emotion aside and negotiate the underlying issues. And please understand. I know some of you might be saying, well Todd, no, my case is complex, but what are you talking about? Is there abuse? How about drug abuse, alcoholism, how about criminal activity? Those are all issues that have come up many, many times. So then it just becomes an issue of, okay, are we going to allow emotion to affect the negotiations? And this is on both sides, the person who may be engaging in bad behavior and the other side, or are we going to sit down and think about how a court might be addressing these issues?

(26:28):

Think about how things have been addressed in the past and let's get to some kind of a compromise. I've had cases where there is let's say drug or alcohol addiction and the other side just wants to ignore it, just wants to say, no, you're out to get me. You're this, you're that, and I want to see the kids and just won't even think rationally and negotiate rationally. And then I've seen somewhere they're like, all right, listen, I get it. I understand I have to prove myself, I have to get better, I have to get healthy. And now let's put all the emotional stuff aside and let's just focus on a schedule that works. So any issue can be contested. That doesn't mean that your position, meaning if you're contesting something is reasonable, attorneys are going to help you navigate the often muddy and turbulent waters of divorce litigation. And if you can't figure something out, trust me, there's one guarantee and I mean absolute guarantee, if you can't resolve your case, a judge will, you're going to find some resolution, whether it's after a month or a year of litigation and a whole bunch of more money being paid for the work to get to that final trial, a judge is going to make a decision.

(28:05):

So if you can't see compromise or any way to concede any points and anything that is coming from the other side, understand a judge is going to look for those middle grounds and you'll walk away with an order that came from a judge who doesn't know you, doesn't know your family, and it is what it is. So that's part of the value of experts like attorneys. It's the ability to educate you on what reasonable looks like and how can you take the proverbial high road if you have no idea what the path even looks like. So let's talk about some practical thoughts, some considerations.

(28:51):

Well, what happens if you can't resolve the issues? I've already said it. It's a longer case if you can't sit down and negotiate the issues and can't put the emotion aside. I understand in your mind, in your heart, you're like, I have to fight these things. I cannot do X, Y, Z and I will not give an inch. But practically speaking, you're now looking at a longer case and Georgia I think does a pretty decent job. I can't speak for every court, I can't speak for every judge. I am not saying that this is for every court in Georgia. I am simply saying though, I have seen people in other states where they're like, oh, we're going on year three of litigation. Judges here want things off of their docket. They want cases to get resolved. I'm not saying that it can't go to a year or more, but I'm just saying oftentimes you sit on things and something doesn't happen. A judge is going to call you in for a status conference to basically say, Hey, what's going on? Am I dismissing your case or are you moving towards some kind of a settlement? And if not, I'm putting you on a trial calendar. Let's go ahead and get this done. So it's a longer case if you can't or are not open to any type of concession, it means more court litigation. Longer case doesn't mean you're just sitting twiddling your thumbs waiting for a year.

(30:38):

So it's more litigation, temporary hearings, final trials, mediation, motion hearings. There are a number of things, and those are the in-person things, right? Then there's all the written work motions that are being filed, letters that are being drafted and sent back and forth, other types of negotiation that is taking place. There are even experts that have to be hired at times. You have financial issues. A forensic accountant may be necessary if there are custody issues, psychologists, psychiatrists, there could be evaluators who are appointed by the court guardians ad litem. So a lot more litigation is going to be required. Something I already mentioned, people ask all the time cost, using that dentist metaphor, if all you need is a cleaning versus you have seven cavities, I think we can all safely assume one costs more than the other.

(31:52):

If we have to go to temporary hearing, final trial mediations, in the meantime, motions are filed. If we're doing all of that work, there should be no surprise if your attorney is looking at you saying, Hey, the cost is going up, please pay additional money into your account. But you want the attorney who is going to maintain that resolution focus. You want the attorney who is going to try and educate you to avoid the unnecessary higher costs. And then of course, the higher emotional cost, it prolonged litigation affects you. It does it exhausts you and it can affect you, your work, your social, it's going to affect not just you but your children if you have them, family members, friends. So practically speaking, it is also in your best interest. Not saying give away the farm to finish things fast, but there are clear benefits to being reasonable, understanding. It's a give take and you may have to concede some points so you can get through the case and get back on that path to happiness. Okay. Alright. When we come back, let's talk about something that can help, really help, and that's preparation, why preparation can help you get through this process as quickly as possible. We'll be right back.

Speaker 2 (33:29):

I just wanted to let you know that if you ever wanted to listen to the show live, you can listen at 1:00 AM on Monday mornings, WSB, so you can always check us out there as

Speaker 1 (33:39):

Well. Better than counting sheep, I guess, right? That's right. You can turn on the show and we'll help you fall asleep.

Speaker 2 (33:47):

There you go.

Speaker 1 (33:47):

I'll talk very softly.

(33:53):

Welcome back everyone. I'm Todd, and this is Divorce Team Radio, sponsored by Merriwether and Thorpe. If you want to read more about us, check us out online, atlanta divorce team.com. If you want to read transcripts or listen to shows, you can find it@divorceteamradio.com. We're talking today about two terms, concession versus contention, conceding issues and points or contesting and fighting. And sometimes, let's put it this way, sometimes you need to contest, but you always need to be ready to concede, and that is not a statement of weakness. That doesn't mean you are saying, oh wow, I guess I have to give away the farm. No, that's not what I'm saying. If the other party is taking unreasonable positions, then you have no choice. I get it. That's what we do. We fight for our clients all the time, but as quickly as I can say, we are there to fight for our clients to make sure that the other side and the positions the other side is taking aren't unreasonable and won't unreasonably impact our clients. I can also tell you that before we even get into those negotiations, we are spending time with our clients to educate them, to make sure they understand what reasonable looks like.

(35:20):

I would be a very wealthy person if I had a nickel for every time I saw a client taking very difficult positions where I had to basically nicely try and communicate that, hey, some of this that you're saying and the positions you're taking, this is an emotional response, and I get it. You're angry, you're frustrated. All of the above, all of these emotions are swirling around in there, but the positions you're taking, I can tell you right now, a judge may not look at it that way because they did X, Y, Z does not automatically mean you get 1, 2, 3 going into a case like this. You need to just embrace the fact that there is emotion and that emotion can impact your ability or the other party's ability to negotiate in good faith and to put that emotion aside and not allow it to influence the negotiations that you're engaging in. So how can you do that? How can you try and limit the emotional impact? How can you get and stay on a path where you are understanding when to concede, when to contest?

(36:53):

It all comes down to preparation. Really, it's in my mind, other than on the emotional side, seeking help from the right people to keep you focused on the right things. It all comes down to preparation. Whether you're pro se or represented by an attorney, preparation is key and can help keep emotion out of the process. Why? It can help you focus on the issues and give you a clear picture of what a fair compromise looks like. Oftentimes, the way that attorneys look at it, or I can speak for myself, I think oftentimes in terms of what would a judge do? A client poses a question or says, I would like to fight for something. Okay, well let's think about the county we're in, the judge we're in front of. Let's just think generally even, what would a judge do if somebody said, look, I am thinking this for a custody, but the opposing party, they are saying that they want to do an hour on hour off custody schedule for our six week old.

(38:16):

Well, obviously I can say, look, no court is going to do that. I don't even understand. It's ridiculous on so many levels, it is not in the best interest of a child. A court will not do that. I know that's an extreme ridiculous example, but I've had people come and say, well, I live in this state. You live in that state. How about we do a year on year off? For the most part, I can say, look, I don't know what this judge will do. I find it highly, highly, highly unlikely the court will do that. So I don't think you need to concede that point, but if somebody comes and says, Hey, a five o'clock versus a six o'clock pickup, Hey, instead of dropping off at four o'clock on a Sunday, maybe I drop off at a seven o'clock. Alright, is there room to negotiate?

(39:10):

Is there room to concede a point potentially? Yeah, of course there is, and that's not a weakness. That's just trying to figure out something that makes sense saying, no, I want four o'clock because you're angry because they treated you, not the children treated you badly. Well, the court's not going to see it that way. The court might be looking going, well, seven o'clock is kind of a reasonable time. Why four o'clock? That brings me back to preparation. So if you can focus on the issues, then oftentimes what you're doing is you're pushing to the side, the emotion. My approach is this one, you have to understand which of the four core areas exist in your case, and those are custody issues, child support issues, alimony, also known as spousal support and division of property. That's the four core areas. So in your situation, which of those apply? Once you understand that, that takes two seconds. Once you understand that, hey, we have no kids, great, no custody, no child support, we both have jobs, no alimony, we're down to division of property and debt, fine.

(40:35):

Then number two, flesh out what the sub-issues are. If custody is an issue, then you know, have to deal with parenting time. You know, have to deal with decision making authority on major issues. Educate yourself about what the issues are like. In other words, if there's property, I know we have a house. I know each of us has a car, my car is a lease, his car is a purchase, and there's probably $10,000 of equity there. Figure out what the sub-issues are that are going to have to be resolved. Think about three, the sticking points that may arise. Like I said, the opposing party wants to do a year on year off kind of schedule. I know I'm not going to agree to that. Or they want to pay a lower child support number, which would require a deviation and no allowable deviation exists. I mean whatever. But think about those issues so that you are prepared to address them when they come up. Four, educate yourself about the law on those issues.

(41:49):

Remember, big gray area, so it may not be, and likely is not the case that you can just go online, pull up a statute that just says, oh, in this situation, this is what happens. But nonetheless, you have to understand if child support's going to be an issue, you need to absolutely understand how child support works in the state. If custody is an issue, you need to figure out what are some of the options. Think about your historic involvement, the other party's historic involvement, and if you're taking a position that tries to minimize the other party's role, but they have had an incredibly involved role up to that point and there's no other behavior that might convince a judge to limit their rights, well then you have to be thinking about that.

(42:43):

You have to put the emotion to the side and focus on the issues. Focus on what a court might do, so educate yourself on the law and then be ready to present data that supports your positions on the issues. So you've educated yourself, you understand what the issues are, and now you are ready to have a conversation and hopefully at that point it's not a conversation influenced by the emotion. Now you understand for the most part how the four core areas might be handled in your situation, what fair might look like, and you understand, I'm going to have to give to get, I'm going to to concede some points, but if this is a one-way road and the other side is simply saying, I want I want, I want and won't give anything, well, then you may have no choice but to contest the issue and take it in front of a judge.

(43:43):

If the opposing party says, I want joint custody, if you say no, well, you're in for a fight. But if you say instead that this is what I believe would be reasonable and what our child's needs are, so if you approach it this way, then you have to understand, you will remember that concessions and compromise. That's what these cases are about. If you can put emotion aside, if you can do these things, then that question that I keep getting asked, how long will this take? How much will it cost? You'll have a much better idea because then you can really start thinking in terms of, okay, well here are the issues. Here's sort of the range on how we might be able to settle on these issues, and you can then approach negotiations with an eye towards settlement. Well, we are out of time. I hope this discussion today helped. Thanks for listening.