Episode 148 - Seeking Wise Counsel to Build a Thriving Marriage or Survive a Divorce

Over the years, we have seen many spouses make the mistake of seeking advice in all the wrong places. Often, that decision resulted in one of them ending up as a client. This mistake can be avoided, however, by seeking out the right, wise counsel in advance. You can strengthen your marriage or get through a rough patch by surrounding yourself with the right people. In this show, Leh and Todd are going to discuss the wisdom of the ages and recent scientific studies that support the notion of actively seeking out wise counsel. They will also discuss the types of counsel you should avoid, the ones you should actively seek out, and what kind of questions you should ask your wise counsel when you finally build your team.
Transcript
Leh
Meriwether: Oh, I'm ready for
today, Todd.
Todd
Orston: The gauntlet has
been thrown. That seemed almost like a challenge.
Leh
Meriwether: It was.
Todd
Orston: All right. All
right.
Leh
Meriwether: We'll see how wise
you are.
Todd
Orston: I will meet you
on the battlefield.
Leh
Meriwether: Welcome, everyone.
I'm Leh Meriwether, and with me is Todd Orston. Todd and I are partners at the
law firm of Meriwether & Tharp, and you're listening to The Meriwether
& Tharp Show. Here, you'll learn about divorce, family law, tips on how to
save your marriage if it's in the middle of a crisis, from time to time even
tips on how to take your marriage to the next level. If you want to read more
about us, you can always check us out online at atlantadivorceteam.com.
Well,
today's one of those days that we're going to talk about something that can
help save your marriage if it's in the middle of a crisis and potentially keep
you on the right track if you're in a good marriage, maybe take it to a whole
new level, and you can even use these tips if you're in the middle of a
divorce.
Todd
Orston: And if you act
now, we'll throw in a Ginsu knife. No, sorry, it was just ... You got a little
infomercial-ly.
Leh
Meriwether: I know. I just get
excited. No, today we're going to talk about seeking wise counsel to build a
thriving marriage or survive your divorce. I used or this time.
Todd
Orston: So I'll give my
number instead of yours? Ooh.
Leh
Meriwether: Aye caramba.
Todd
Orston: But jokes aside,
we're not just talking about attorneys, looking to attorneys for wise counsel.
Counsel can come from anyone, anywhere-
Leh
Meriwether: Right.
Todd
Orston: ... and
oftentimes, we have seen people look to all the wrong people in all the wrong
places-
Leh
Meriwether: Yes.
Todd
Orston: ... and they
take to heart advice that either is incorrect or not just is it incorrect, it
is destined to put you on a very bad path, making bad decisions that can have a
lasting impact on, let's say you're in the middle of a divorce or you're just
struggling with your relationship and it starts pushing you in the wrong
direction. So that's what we're talking about when we're talking about wise
counsel.
Leh
Meriwether: Yes, because we've
seen situations where it's just as harmful as it could be helpful. So today
we're going to talk about why it's so important, we're going to explore three
kinds of counsel you should avoid, four kinds of counsel you should consider
having, and five things to remember when choosing wise counsel for your healthy
marriage.
Todd
Orston: I was not taking
notes. I don't ...
Leh
Meriwether: Well, it's a good
thing I wrote it down.
Todd
Orston: Seven of
something and 12 of another, I'm ...
Leh
Meriwether: Well-
Todd
Orston: Maybe we should
just start talking.
Leh
Meriwether: All right, so why
should you seek out the wise advice of others? Well, we're going to talk about
the wisdom of the ages and we're also going to talk about modern science. So
are you ready for the history lesson?
Todd
Orston: Remember, we
have four segments, Leh, and this is not-
Leh
Meriwether: I will be quick.
Todd
Orston: ... and this is
not History Today, all right? This is a totally different show, so-
Leh
Meriwether: Well, what we see
in marriages a lot of times is people will get, they'll be moving along, like
you said, they may talk to the wrong folks. They don't actively seek out people
that could help them in their marriage, help them take their marriage to the
next level, perhaps help them get through a rough spot in their marriage. But
going back three thousand years, King Solomon talked about, and many
historians, regardless of religious beliefs, say that he was one of the wisest
men that ever lived. In fact, I read something saying that he may have been the
wealthiest man that ever lived because kings from all over would come pay him
tons of gold and jewelry just to give his wise counsel to them. But he wrote
down like, I'll just give a few of the proverbs, but was it Proverbs 12:15,
"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man is he who
listens to counsel." And even if you're not a religious person, this is
good stuff, and like I said, we're going to-
Todd
Orston: This is good
stuff.
Leh
Meriwether: It's good stuff!
Todd
Orston: Solomon right
now, he's slapping his forehead. Did this guy just say, "This is good
stuff"?
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah, I did.
Todd
Orston: This guy ....
Anyway.
Leh
Meriwether: Well, Proverbs
11:14, "Where there is no guidance, the people fall, but in an abundance
of counselors, there is victory." I've got a few more. I'll just do one
more.
Todd
Orston: One more.
Leh
Meriwether: One more, all
right. So Proverbs 13:10, "Through insolence comes nothing but strife. But
wisdom is with those who receive counsel," and there's actually several
more in Proverbs where they talk about-
Todd
Orston: Not bad. I mean
seriously. Kudos. These are not bad.
Leh
Meriwether: They're not bad,
yup.
Todd
Orston: No, look.
Seeking out counsel. There's a difference between seeking out counsel and just
going to anyone who will be your sounding board and then relying on what that
sounding board feeds you back in response. If you have a toothache, you're not
going to go to your gardner and say, "Listen, you do a great job on my
lawn. My tooth is hurting," and then when they say, "Oh, we probably
need a weed whacker," well, that's horrible. That's ... Listen, you are
not King Solomon, all right? But what we're talking about is, you have to be
more deliberate. You're going to want sounding boards, fantastic. What they say
in return, for the most part, take it with a grain of salt. If you are trying
to fix something, go to the one, go to the person, the therapist, the religious
leader, whoever it is that you think will be unbiased, meaning they're not just
going to blindly take your side and give you the best advice possible in order
to make positive changes that can hopefully fix whatever's broken.
Leh
Meriwether: Yup, or help you
stay on the right path so nothing does get broken.
Todd
Orston: I just got
high-fived by Solomon's ghost. All right?
Leh Meriwether: Well, not only him, but Aeschylus,
who was a Greek playwright and religious thinker from-
Todd
Orston: I thought Todd
was an uncommon name. I mean, that's ... that name pretty much died out, I'll
be honest with you.
Leh
Meriwether: So he's from 500
B.C. He wrote, "Search well and be wise, nor believe that self-willed
pride will ever be better than good counsel." And I can go beyond Greeks,
I can talk about the Romans. There was Seneca, who lived between 4 B.C. and 65
A.D., who was a Roman stoic philosopher. He said, "Consult your friend on
all things, especially on those which respect yourself. His counsel may then be
useful where your own self-love might impair your judgment," and I don't
stop there. I have one more, just one more. All right, Lord Francis Bacon from
15-
Todd
Orston: Mm, bacon.
Leh
Meriwether: I knew you were
going to say that. See, I knew you would like this one. So from 1626,
"There is as much difference between the counsel that a friend
giveth," I like this, right, "and that a man giveth himself, as there
is between the counsel of a friend and of a flatterer, for there is no such
flatterer as is a man's self." Did you get that?
Todd
Orston: You know what?
Sir Bacon, because I would totally call him Sir Bacon. Maybe Lord Bacon.
Leh
Meriwether: Lord Bacon.
Todd
Orston: But he had a way
with words.
Leh
Meriwether: He did. So all
these ancient philosophers and religious leaders all talked about wise counsel
and what's really interesting now is that flash forward to today, modern science
pretty much backs up what these thinkers said all those years ago, and if you
read the Nobel Prize-winning psychologist and economist Daniel Kahneman in his
book, Thinking Fast and Slow, you'll learn, and what he did was he pooled
literally decades of research about how we come to decisions, a lot of it's
talking about financial decisions, but how we come to decisions as human
beings, and what he found through his research and what partly helped him win
the Nobel Prize was we are emotional beings and we make emotional decisions. We
fool ourselves into thinking they're rational decisions, but we're really
controlled by emotion when it comes down to it, most of the time.
Todd
Orston: Yeah, in so many
aspects of our life, and it's not emotion, what people maybe misunderstand is,
when we say it's an emotional, that we make emotional decisions, it doesn't
mean you're super angry and making a decision. Some of these are, you're not
even thinking about it.
Leh
Meriwether: Right.
Todd
Orston: It's, these decisions
are being made, meaning you are making them, but they're being made and you are
heavily influenced by emotional factors, and so sales, when you talk to sales,
you read anything about sales, they talk about how most purchases are made
based on emotional desires and what have you.
Leh
Meriwether: And then we'll
rationalize it after the fact.
Todd
Orston: Exactly. So when
we talk about emotion, we're not talking about the you wear your emotions on
your sleeve kind of emotions. All right? We're talking about things that are
really deep, that you may not even understand that they are impacting decisions
that you're making.
Leh
Meriwether: Most of the time,
you're not even aware of it. That's hwy it's so important to seek out wise
counsel, because ... and we'll get into that too, here, in a minute, but there
was also, I don't know if you ever watched the show Brain Games, I don't know
if it's still on, but there was one where they had actually studied the
responses, the emotional responses of someone being yelled at by like say a
boss versus someone being attacked or confronted by a lion, and they said that
from a psychological standpoint, our brains don't really know the difference
between a boss screaming at us and a lion roaring at us. So even though the boss
can't kill you, a lion can, but your emotional response can still be the same
and what it causes is you to enter your fight or flight and protect yourself,
either engage or run away, and you actually lose your short-term memory for
certain points of time. It was a really fascinating show.
But the
point is, in the middle of a divorce, that can really kick in and you can make
some really poor decisions, and when we come back, we're going to talk about
just why wise counsel is so important.
Hey
Todd, we got another review and this time, it wasn't from you. Friendoregon
gave us a five-star review and said, "I'm approaching a divorce with a
very complex asset division. I've listened to so many podcasts, and this is by
far the most informative and factual. Thank you so much for your wonderful
presentation."
Todd
Orston: I don't think I
could've said it any better.
Leh
Meriwether: Everyone, if
you're enjoying the show, if you're getting a lot out of the show, we would
love it if you could go post a five-star review and say something nice, at
least about me. You don't have to say anything nice about Todd, but at least
about me, because it helps us climb in the rankings so that we can help more
people.
All
right, admit it, Todd. You're impressed with all my quotes.
Todd
Orston: No. I'm on the
air. I'm not admitting that.
Leh
Meriwether: He admitted it off
the air.
Todd
Orston: I'm trying to be
... Listen, you're doing a fine job. That was very Solomon-esque, right? I'm
splitting the baby here.
Leh
Meriwether: Oh boy. Welcome,
everyone. This is Leh and Todd you're listening to the Meriwether & Tharp
Show. If you want to learn more about us, you can always check us out online at
atlantadivorceteam.com. If you want to hear all those great quotes that I gave earlier
in the earlier segment, you can go check us out online at divorceteamradio.com
and there should be a transcript up there, as well, so you can read these great
quotes. I wish I made them. I just found them, and I just read them to you, and
Todd was really impressed, so you should see in his face.
All
right, so we're talking about wise counsel and how important it is to actually
seek out wise counsel. We tend to just sit back and just go about our lives and
go about our marriages and not surround ourselves with the right people and as
a result, we can surround ourselves with the wrong people and suddenly find
ourselves facing a crisis in our marriage or even a divorce. So the reason why
seeking them out, sort of to summarize what we talked about, the great
philosophers and what some neuroscience says about how our brains make
decisions, it that there's three really overriding reasons why you should have
wise counsel around you.
First
off, wise counsel's not blinded by your pride, because pride blinds all of us,
and all too often, pride can put us in a position that we're blinded by what's
really happening around us. We tell ourselves, "You know, I know what I'm
doing. I don't need anyone else to tell me something that I don't already
know," or "I'm not doing anything wrong. This situation is all their
fault because my wife will ... she just won't do this," or "My
husband refuses to do that." But we're blinded by our pride and maybe our
spouse is doing something and it seems like it's all their fart but ... fault,
but it could be because of something that we're doing that we can't see because
we're blinded by our pride.
Todd
Orston: Did you just say
that it was blinded by a fart? Normally I would let that one go, but I mean,
that was-
Leh
Meriwether: I thought you were
going to let that one go. That was an accident.
Todd
Orston: As most farts
are. But you're right, not only are you blinded by farts, but pride absolutely
gets in the way, end of story. I mean, we are litigators, all right? We are
trained to litigate. It's a nice way of saying to engage in a fight of words.
Okay? And so we don't like to back down, but we at least are trained, because
we're not going into litigation emotional. We are trying to be logical. We are
trying to go in and not allow emotion to dictate our behavior or affect our
behavior, and unfortunately, when it's you, when it's happening to you, you
can't do that. You are caught up in the emotion, you're caught up in the pride
of, "I need to be right. I am right. The other party has to be the one
that's wrong and I'm going to just take a hard position and fight to prove
that."
Leh
Meriwether: And you know
what's interesting, you said that we're trained not to do this, but even inside
our own firm, sometimes ... well, no, not sometimes. Most of the time, we'll go
double check with some other lawyer inside our firm, where we'll say,
"Hey, I'm taking this position in this case. Do you think I'm crazy? Do
you think I'm-
Todd
Orston: Well, we have a
policy. We have a two-eye policy for exactly that reason, because it's-
Leh
Meriwether: Because we can,
even though we think ... So even us, who have been trained to be logical, we
can fall prey to an emotional decision, and so even within our own firm, we try
to double check ourselves. So we-
Todd
Orston: Yup. Yup. We
have that ability. But when you're just engaging with, let's say, your spouse
or even a former spouse, you don't have that ability to say, "Wait. What
did you say? Hold on one second. Let me check with my wise counsel here. Should
I take that in a negative way or a positive way, and am I sort of at fault?
Maybe I am? Okay. Now I have a response. Thank you very much." You don't
have that ability to do that. We do-
Leh
Meriwether: Not on the fly.
Todd
Orston: Not on the fly.
We have the ability, because it's not on the fly. But even when we are in
court, because we're not caught up in the emotion, we can inject more logic
than you might be able to when it's something that's happening directly to you.
Leh
Meriwether: Yup, and so wise
counsel does not get clouded by your emotions, either. So our emotions, your
emotions, can get clouded, whether it's sorrow, depression, hate, anger, any of
those things, the neuroscience shows-
Todd
Orston: Fear.
Leh
Meriwether: Fear, yeah.
Todd
Orston: You were talking
about fight or flight.
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah, fear.
Todd
Orston: So that is an
emotion, and not only can it blind you or not only can it affect you, but you
were even saying that you might have the inability to recall because your brain
is doing something chemically and it's like, "You may get eaten by a lion.
We're not going to save that information, just in case you do get eaten."
So you may not be 100% present and able to engage rationally because you are
too caught up in the emotion.
Leh Meriwether: And I've even seen cases where the
loss of a child or parent, one of the spouse's parents, causes so much
heartache that the parties wind up getting a divorce, or what'll happen is the
heartache or sorrow, depression, they wind up saying, "Well, this is the
fault of my spouse," whereas wise counsel around them might say, "You
know what, I think you're still struggling with the death of your daughter or
your son. I think you need to go get into counseling." So wise counsel is
going to call you on that, especially if they see ... because they're not
blinded by that depression in that situation. You know, wise counsel's like a
lighthouse in the fog of emotion that makes it difficult to think.
The
last thing is, wise counsel is not overcome by your stress, because stress can
prevent us from thinking or self-evaluating. The stress can come from the
inside of a relationship or the outside of a relationship. Maybe you've come
home, you've had a rough time at work and then you find yourself lashing out at
the children or your spouse and your wife points it out, "Hey, I think
you're a little angry today," and then you just lash out at her instead of
going, "Well, hang on a minute. I need to self-evaluate. Maybe she's
right." So whatever the reason, you have a tough time accepting what is
obvious to all of those around you.
Todd
Orston: And it is hard.
I've gotten angry. Everyone has gotten angry at-
Leh
Meriwether: I haven't.
Todd
Orston: I've seen you,
big bear. I've seen you get angry. No, but it is, I'm not going to sit here and
try and pretend like it is just so easy, anyone can just control their emotion
and not allow stress to affect your behavior. It can be almost impossible, or
at least feel almost impossible, but it is. It is possible, and if you have wise
counsel, if you have found a circle of trust, people or a person that you can
look to, not someone who is just 100% blindly going to take your side-
Leh
Meriwether: Right. Not a
cheerleader. You don't want a cheerleader.
Todd
Orston: Right, and then
is just going to build on your emotion. But someone who will be your rock,
someone who will be very calm and not caught up in that maelstrom, in that
storm, then that's going to help you immensely and hopefully, it will allow you
to navigate and deal with whatever the issues are, not heavily influenced by
that stress.
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah, so the three
reasons why you should actively seek out the wise counsel is to help with
things that you can't necessarily control yourself, and help point out maybe
your own faults, things that you can't see and those ... and sometimes it's
very difficult to listen to those that are closest to us, as strange as that
may sound, but sometimes those closest to us, when they perhaps make an
observation of what they see, the behavior, you can see the person on the other
end just get very defensive, even though that person, you would think that that
should be their closest counsel because they're their spouse. I mean, they love
them, they married them, they had kids with them. But yet for some reason, we
get so defensive right off the bat when it's our spouse calling us out on
something. But that's why you've got to have wise counsel.
All
right, so we're going to talk about now the three kinds of counsel you really
should avoid. We kind of talked about the cheerleader, and like in the context
of a divorce, you want to avoid someone who's going through a divorce. If
you're at a point in your marriage where you're maybe struggling with an issue,
you don't want someone who's in the middle of a divorce. They're like,
"Yeah," because they're going to want you to sort of go through the
divorce too, and I don't know about you, Todd, but I have literally seen
subdivisions all get divorced where like one person starts the divorce process
and then in this particular case, it was one of the neighbors, the woman talked
to the other woman and she's like, "You know, my husband has been acting
kind of weird, too," and "Well, you should get a divorce," and
I'm not saying it was that simple, but next thing you know, three neighbors are
all getting divorced, and it's-
Todd
Orston: Yeah, and that
doesn't mean ... Just so you understand, we're not saying don't talk to people
who are going through a divorce.
Leh
Meriwether: Right, yeah. I'm
not saying that.
Todd
Orston: I think the
recurring message is going to be, take what is said to you with a grain of
salt. Understand your situation is not the same as theirs, and then make your
decisions.
Leh
Meriwether: And up next, we're
going to talk about the two other types of counsel you should avoid.
Todd
Orston: Hey everyone,
you're listening to our podcast, but you have alternatives. You have choices.
You can listen to us live also at 1 a.m. on Monday morning on WSB.
Leh
Meriwether: If you're enjoying
the show, we would love it if you could go rate us on iTunes or wherever you
may be listening to it. Give us a five-star rating and tell us why you like the
show.
Welcome,
everyone. I'm Leh Meriwether, and with me is Todd Orston. Todd and I are
partners at the law firm of Meriwether & Tharp, and you're listening to The
Meriwether & Tharp Show. If you want to read more about us, you can always
check us out online at atlantadivorceteam.com.
Well
today, we're talking all about wise counsel and actually seeking out wise
counsel to help you build a thriving marriage and get through those rough spots
sometimes. A lot of times people, they get in a rut of life and they get
blinded by their pride or emotion and they don't think to create a group of
wise counsel around them and often what they'll do is they'll get the wrong
type of people around them that ultimately lead them to a divorce. We've seen
it time and time again, and so that's why we wanted to spend ... This was one
of those shows where we're talking about things you can do to strengthen your
marriage, to maybe get your marriage through a rough spot.
We
started with talking about the three types of counsel you really should avoid,
and right now we're focusing on you should avoid these if you're trying to have
a strong, healthy marriage. So you want to avoid someone going through a
divorce, and I'm not saying you don't come alongside them and help them. I'm
not saying that at all. What I'm saying is, you're not going to them for
marriage advice.
Todd
Orston: Yeah, they can
be the sounding board for you, you can be the sounding board for them, but
we're talking about wise counsel. So should they be the end-all, be-all source
of advice to help you deal with whatever it is you're dealing with? No, they're
caught up in their own situation. They're dealing with their own emotional
turmoil and their own issues and therefore, relying on them just wouldn't even
make sense.
Leh
Meriwether: And sometimes they
can become your cheerleader, and not in a good way, meaning-
Todd Orston: That's right.
Leh
Meriwether: ... they're
cheerleading, "Yeah, you should file divorce."
Todd
Orston: "Get a
divorce. Get a divorce. It's pretty easy. I can do it, I did it, I'm in the
middle of it. Yeah, I've got a good name for an attorney, absolutely."
Leh
Meriwether: Right.
Todd
Orston: But that may be
exactly what you don't need. You may rather have someone who's whispering in
your ear things like, "Slow down. Hold on. I understand that this happened
and that happened, but why don't you go talk to a therapist? Why don't you go
talk to someone who maybe can help you through this? Why don't you at least
take a day or two before you react?" to calm you down, rather than build
up that emotion.
Leh
Meriwether: So the next
person, our next type of counsel you should avoid, is a person of the opposite
sex, with the exception of like a professional relationship like a counselor or
psychologist, a lawyer, clergy, any of those. So putting aside the professional
relationships, we have seen so many divorces start with somebody at work
talking to someone of the opposite sex and they're complaining about, "Oh,
my wife did this," or "My husband did that," and then next thing
you know, they're like, "You know what? My spouse does that too, and wow,
we have something in common. Oh, you get me. You know what it's like," and
next thing you know, we have an office romance.
Todd
Orston: Or even if you
don't. Let's not even jump to that possibility. Even if you don't start some
kind of an office romance, the minute that the other party gets wind, catches
wind of the fact that your confidante is somebody of the opposite sex that you
work with-
Leh
Meriwether: Yup. Good point.
Todd
Orston: ... assumptions
will be made. All right? So you have to be very careful and again, I know I'm
sort of parroting this same point, it doesn't mean you can't talk to somebody,
a member of the opposite sex. Should you be looking to that person to step into
the role of one of your wise counselors? And the answer is no, you probably
shouldn't, because you may have absolutely ... The other thing I would say is,
your motivations might be pure. The person is a good listener, I want to just
explain things, I just need someone that can hear what my issues are and give
me some advice, but you don't know what that person's motivations are.
Leh
Meriwether: Right.
Todd
Orston: Maybe that
person is interested in you. Maybe that person would like nothing more than to
see your marriage break down so they can step into that position.
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah, so they're
not really ... and we'll talk about the type of wise counsel to choose and
you'll understand, there's a question to ask in there and that person, knowing
that they may have some-
Todd
Orston: Ulterior motive.
Leh
Meriwether: Exactly, that would
not make them wise counsel. All right, for you, in this particular situation.
Again, the exception is a counselor, a psychologist, a member of the clergy,
whether it be a rabbi, a priest, or a pastor, or imam or whatever. That's a
professional relationship.
All
right, so the last one, this may sound weird, but is family members. Now, there
are exceptions to this, but one of the challenges to having a family member as
one of your wise counsel, is that maybe you're going through a rough patch and
you tell your dad, "Hey, I'm having all these troubles and ...." but
then you get through that rough patch and you forgive your spouse, but your dad
may not or your mom may not. So the problem with going to family members is it
can create tension down the road, because they don't want to ... they're not
there for that forgiveness part, and that ... Like I said, there are exceptions
to that, there are parents that'll call you, that maybe they are really good at
that and they realize there's two sides to every conversation. But often ... I
mean, we want to protect our children, and so-
Todd
Orston: And they may
have their own emotional baggage. They may already ... How many times have we
heard, "I never liked him or her"?
Leh
Meriwether: Yes.
Todd
Orston: "Oh, I remember
back in 1978, we had a ..." Well, I don't care what happened back then,
and the fact that you're carrying that baggage with you, that has nothing to do
with your relationship with the person right now today. So unfortunately, that
wise counsel is dragging their own emotional baggage into the conversation and
allowing it to influence their opinion, and so if the opinion is, "Oh
yeah, absolutely. What he or she did, it's wrong and just why don't you come
stay with us, move out of the house, do this, do that," that's not really
... that's not wise counsel. It may end up being what has to happen, and maybe
you do separate, but it shouldn't be because somebody who is clearly biased in
your favor and maybe has their own baggage is giving you this kind of advice.
Leh
Meriwether: Exactly. All
right, so let's talk about the four types of wise counsel you should consider
including. Now, sometimes counsel may not be just people. It doesn't
necessarily have to be someone who's right in front of you, so one of them is
reading books, listening to podcasts. If you're listening to this podcast,
you're already on the right path.
Todd
Orston: Yeah.
Leh
Meriwether: But I mean,
because you're learning, you're growing.
Todd
Orston: What about the
story? You told a story about someone listening to, was it our show?
Leh
Meriwether: It was our show,
yeah.
Todd
Orston: That's right,
and where a gentleman listened to the show and was-
Leh
Meriwether: It was one of our
reviews.
Todd
Orston: ... and was sort
of on the fence and instead of taking what we said the wrong way and moving
towards hiring us and going forward with a divorce, actually invited his spouse
to listen to the show-
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah, we had two
shows on communication about taking your marriage to the next level.
Todd
Orston: That's right,
and they were able to both put their ... not actual, but the weapons down,
communicate better, fix what was broken, and their marriage was stronger for
it.
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah, and so they
didn't get a divorce.
Todd
Orston: So it can be
podcasts, books, whatever.
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah, so that's
the first thing to start listening to. The next thing is professionals,
lawyers, doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, clergy, and I
include psychiatrists in there because so many times, people are afraid of that
word. They're like, "Oh, if I see a psychiatrist, there's something really
wrong with me." Well, the brain is an organ just like your heart, and if
you don't have a problem seeing a heart doctor, or maybe you're an asthmatic or
maybe you suffer from diabetes or whatever it may be, you have to take
medication to treat that. Well, the brain is an organ too, and maybe you suffer
from clinical depression and there is actually a product out there that can
make up for whatever the deficiency in your neurons that process whether it be
dopamine or serotonin or any of those things. A good psychiatrist can help you
fix that.
Todd
Orston: Absolutely. I
took my son once to a concert, Imagine Dragons, and the lead singer apparently
suffers from depression and a lot of his messaging throughout the show was,
"Don't be afraid. I see people or see someone and don't be one of those
that feels uncomfortable, scared, whatever. Go get the help that you
need." So a good psychiatrist, and I'm not saying every single one is
falling to that category, so you have to be selective and you have to be
careful, but a good psychiatrist can be invaluable to give you all the help
that you need to weather the emotional storm that you might find yourself in.
Leh
Meriwether: And a professional
... So let's say you don't need that sort of, you don't need drugs or
prescription medication to help work through something, but maybe you're just
struggling for whatever, at a moment in your life and that counselor is a
professional and they can help you work through it, whether it's a transition
at work or the death of a loved one or something like that, apart from your
spouse, like a parent or a best friend. That can help you work through a
difficult time so it doesn't negatively impact your marriage.
All
right, so the next one is positive role models. When you're looking for a
positive role model, you want to look to a lot of times couples, because we're
talking right now about wise counsel to strengthen your marriage, but couples
that have been married for a long time, and observe what they do right. I know
that one of my role models was my grandfather and nana. They were married 65
years. They were a very positive role model, and I know if they were still
alive today, if I had any issues, I would be going to them, because what a
great role model.
Hey,
and up next, we're going to continue to dive into the types of wise counsel you
should consider.
I just
wanted to let you know that if you ever wanted to listen to the show live, you
can listen at 1 a.m. on Monday mornings on WSB. So you can always check us out
there, as well.
Todd
Orston: Better than
counting sheep, I guess, right?
Leh
Meriwether: That's right.
Todd
Orston: You can turn on
the show and we'll help you fall asleep.
Leh
Meriwether: There you go.
Todd
Orston: I'll talk very
soft.
Leh
Meriwether: Welcome, everyone.
I'm Leh Meriwether, and with me is Todd Orston. You're listening to The
Meriwether & Tharp Show. If you want to read more about us, you can always
check us out online at atlantadivorceteam.com. I'm talking quick because we're
in the last segment, unfortunately, and we're talking about how to surround
yourself with wise counsel to help build a thriving marriage, because so often
people don't do that and sometimes they get the wrong people around them and it
can ultimately lead to a divorce, unfortunately.
When we
left off, we were talking about the four types of counsel you should include in
that, and I had actually mentioned my grandfather. Now, some might say,
"Well, isn't he a family member? Wouldn't that run afoul of one of the
three types you should avoid?" And he is one of those exceptions, because
growing up, he would call me out. That's the kind of guy he was, and my parents,
they've been married over 50 years, but they're closer to me and while I have
gone to them on occasion, but they're a little too close to it. He's a little
more removed, and so I would be comfortable going to him because I know he's
going to call me on the carpet if he thinks I'm doing something I shouldn't be
doing.
All
right, so positive role models. Look for someone that's where you want to be in
the future. Maybe someone who at least ... Obviously you don't know everyone,
but at least on the surface if it looks like they've got a good balance between
faith, family, and work, that may be someone who you want to talk to.
All
right, and then lastly, marriage groups and seminars. Here's a good example.
Dr. Gary Chapman, he was on our show about a little over a year ago talking
about the five love languages, and my wife and I have been to a lot of seminars
and we signed up for his seminar. I hadn't been to his seminar, even though I'd
read a few of his books, and that morning, we were like, "Oh man, we have so
much to do. Maybe we shouldn't go," and we were like, "You know what?
Let's go." Man, I walked away with so many great tips from his seminar
that ... I mean, we're using them every day, and I am so thankful, we're both
thankful, and what was really great was when we walked out of there, we were
like ... we almost said it simultaneously, "I'm so glad we went." So
you never know what you're going to learn at one of these marriage seminars.
Todd
Orston: Well, you know
what? If I were to summarize it in any way, it's you have to put some effort
in, you have to put some time in. Whether you're listening to a podcast,
listening to a radio show, speaking with individuals that you think aren't
going to be caught up in the emotion and will be unbiased, going to seminars or
working with a marriage group, you have to put the time in. It's not going to
be easy. Nothing that we're saying comes easy. It's going to take work, you're
going to have to figure out who can you trust, who becomes your counselor, and
how much time am I willing to put into fixing what might be broken, and so
marriage groups and seminars and things fall squarely into that category. Is it
going to take time? Absolutely, but if you walk away, if you're dealing with a
stress in your life, an issue in your marriage, and you walk away with that
same feeling that you just described, well, was the two, three, four hour
seminar worth it? In my opinion, of course.
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah, it was
actually, it was an all day one. It was-
Todd
Orston: Well, that's not
worth it, though.
Leh
Meriwether: Or it's doubly
worth it. All right, well let's talk about the five things to consider when
you're actually looking for those wise counsel, because we've talked all about
the wise counsel, but there's certain things that you should be looking out
for. The first thing, and there are situations ... Well, sometimes you can have
general wise counsel, then other times, you can have situational wise counsel.
So
you're looking for someone that's outside of the situation. If you feel like
you're heading towards a divorce, you don't want to talk to someone who's in
the middle of a divorce. You want to talk to someone who's in a healthy
marriage, a healthy relationship, someone who's outside of the situation,
outside your immediate situation. So maybe friends that are friends to ... they
don't want to get in the middle of it, like maybe neighbors, they're like,
"Yeah, I don't want to get involved. I don't want to be called into
court." So you've got to go to someone who's outside of the situation. So
that's one of the things to consider.
The
other thing is, choose someone who has nothing to lose by telling you the
truth, and that's not my saying, that totally comes from Andy Stanley. In fact,
many of these top five things come from a course he had done years ago, so I
don't want to ... I want to give him full credit for this, but-
Todd
Orston: Well, to use as
an example, your parents might fall into that category and they might not,
meaning they may be people who have something to lose. I've seen cases where
parents were unwilling, like I talked offline with, let's say, a client's
parents and they expressed concerns but when push came to shove, they were
unwilling to say anything because they were fearful that it could impact their
relationship with their grandchildren.
Leh
Meriwether: Mm-hmm
(affirmative). Yup.
Todd
Orston: So
unfortunately, they had something to lose and therefore, the counsel they might
be giving may not be the best counsel possible.
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah, so look for
someone who has nothing to lose by telling you the truth. Choose someone who is
where you want to be in life. Going back to the reason my grandfather, married
65 years, and we had such a solid relationship, he would tell me the truth. But
that's where I wanted to ... and my wife even recognizes it, like that that's
the kind of marriage that I want to, and when we're walking along with our
walkers, we're still trying to hold each other's hand, so that's where I want
to be.
Todd
Orston: Yeah. Sounds
dangerous, but I get it, I understand the concept. No, but I actually, I love
this one because if you surround yourself by, to use that previous example, a
bunch of people who are in the middle of a divorce, is that the person you want
to emulate? Is that where you want to be? Because by surrounding yourself with
those people, with that negative energy, and maybe they're not counseling you,
like telling you, "Get a divorce. Get a divorce," but still, you are
surrounding yourself by people dealing with similar frustrations, similar
stress in their life, and if that's who you want to be, then you may be,
unfortunately, writing your history, meaning you may be just setting yourself
up for failure because that's all the counsel that you're getting, as opposed
to somebody in a healthy relationship where you're like, "You know what, I
want to get to where you are. What am I doing wrong?"
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah, and so
here's a real important point. Ask more than one person.
Todd
Orston: Oh, I ...
Listen. I believe in this so much, I remember before GPS, I was that-
Leh
Meriwether: This ought to be
good.
Todd
Orston: I was that guy
that I would stop at a gas station to get directions, and I would stop at the
very next gas station to get a second opinion. So you're laughing, I absolutely
am telling the truth. I hated getting lost, so I absolutely would ask more than
one person, and so taking it from my inability to navigate to a relationship,
it's also navigation. Right?
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah.
Todd
Orston: You need to get
from A to B. You need to get from the start to the finish, whatever that finish
looks like, and if you want it to be a positive finish, then don't just rely on
one person, especially if your, for lack of a better way of putting it, your
Spidey sense is tingling. If the advice that you're getting is like, "Oh,
leave him. Leave her. Divorce, divorce, divorce, divorce," take a step
back and go, "Maybe I need to talk to some more people who aren't caught
up in the emotion, because I think the person I'm talking to is really
emotional, giving me advice to just run away and leave. I think I need to talk
to somebody else."
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah, but even if
that person's telling you something that you're like, "Wow, that sounds
like really good advice. That sounds like ..." still get a second-
Todd
Orston: That's right.
Leh
Meriwether: ... second, third
opinion, because maybe they aren't the best wise counsel. Maybe they've become
your cheerleader rather than telling you the truth, and you don't know until
you talk to a number of folks. Now, if all three, if you have three or four
around you and they're all pretty much telling you the same thing, you probably
want to follow what they're saying.
All
right, so here's another tip that I really like. These are direct questions
that you should ask your wise counsel, and ask of of all of them. So what is
the wise thing for me to do in this situation? Just ask them that question, and
another way to say it is, "What would you do if you were me?" Because
then in that situation, kind of the pressure's off, because they'll say,
"Well, if this were me, this is how I would handle it," because
sometimes people are hesitant to say, "I think this is how you should
handle it," because they're telling you what to do, per se. But it's like,
"Well, if it were me, here's what I would do."
Todd
Orston: You're taking
that pressure off.
Leh
Meriwether: Right.
Todd
Orston: You're saying,
"Okay, put yourself in my shoes. What would you do?"
Leh
Meriwether: Yup. So, "Do
you know anyone else that I could talk to about this situation?" Because
the person may, that person you're talking to, they may have gone through a
similar life experience and they talked to two people that helped them get
through it, so you go talk to those two people.
And
then the last question would be, "Can you recommend any books for me to
read that may help me understand and deal with my situation?" So those
things, putting all that together, can surround yourself with positive role
models, positive influences in your life to help you get through a really tough
situation that you may be struggling with in your marriage, and may help you to
avoid ever getting in that situation, as well.
Todd
Orston: Listen, that's
the purpose of this show. We want you to avoid. We don't want you to have to
call a divorce attorney. We would rather you spend your time contacting a
person you trust that is trustworthy to try and fix the problems before they
get to a point where you feel it's unfixable.
Leh
Meriwether: Yeah. One thing we
can't avoid?
Todd
Orston: We're out of
time.
Leh
Meriwether: We're out of time.
Hey everyone, thanks so much for listening.