216 - Is Alimony Only for Women?

Leh Meriwether:

Welcome, everyone. I'm Leh Meriwether and with me is Todd Orston. We are your co-hosts for Divorce Team Radio, a show sponsored by The Divorce and Family Law Firm of Meriwether & Tharp. Here you'll learn about divorce, family law, and from time to time, even tips on how to save your marriage if it's in the middle of a crisis. If you want to read more about us, you can always check us out online at Atlantadivorceteam.com.

Well, Todd, I think it's amazing that after over 200 shows that we can still do something we've never done before.

Todd Orston:

Absolutely.

Leh Meriwether:

Yeah. We're going to talk about election law. No, just kidding.

Todd Orston:

Wow. This is going to be either a short show or a very uninformative show.

Leh Meriwether:

No, I'm just kidding. So today, well, what sparked the topic of today was I saw this YouTube video the other day where this YouTuber, I forgot, he has over a million subscribers or something like that, but he had a lot. And he was commenting about how shocked he was with some comments.

So what sparked it was Kelly Clarkson was ordered to pay $150,000, as of the time we're recording the video, was ordered to pay $150,000 per month in spousal support, alimony and $45,000 a month in child support to her soon to be ex-husband. And he was shocked at how many women were really, really upset with this. And it was, the guy needs to go out and get a job. He needs to go do this. This is ridiculous. No man should ever get alimony. And the responses were as if they thought that alimony was gender specific, meaning it should only be awarded to women. And he was shocked by this. He thought, "I thought this was gender neutral. I thought that it was to help the other person get on their feet." And I'm paraphrasing here, of course.

Todd Orston:

Well, he was really into the hypocrisy angle.

Leh Meriwether:

Yeah.

Todd Orston:

But I agree with you. I mean, he was going into all of these factors and in a very critical look, basically saying there seems to be some hypocrisy here. I'm softening this quite a bit, but go ahead. I'm sorry.

Leh Meriwether:

So what we're doing differently is normally we put together some show notes and we get very organized, but Todd and I are going to have a conversation. This is spontaneous. We found this, we read some articles. So we're going to have a conversation about alimony. I titled the show Is Alimony Only for Women? But I think everyone needs to understand alimony. And when I'm going to say everyone, I'm talking about if... We're going to be talking to the wife that may be the breadwinner, as well as the husband that may be the stay at home dad. We're going to talk about these things, we're going to talk about... I don't know what we're going to talk about. It's a conversation because we haven't planned ahead. So [crosstalk]. What?

Todd Orston:

You are teasing. I mean, we don't even know where this show is going to take us. [crosstalk] All right. Strap in, people.

Leh Meriwether:

Strap in.

Todd Orston:

So we're having a conversation. It's a discussion. So please know when you need to suspend your defensive mechanisms, suspend any... You don't have the right to get offended in this one. [crosstalk] just listen.

Leh Meriwether:

Yeah.

Todd Orston:

Softening that a little bit. Let me say it this way, we're not taking a side. I mean, we may express opinions and what have you, but here's the thing, what we're really trying to do is shed some light or shine some light rather on just a reality, right? Spousal support is a reality. Well, what is a newer reality is that there are more and more men who are taking on parenting roles while the woman in that relationship is the breadwinner. And so with that change, obviously a lot of times we have situations where a mother who has been the stay at home parent, who has taken care of everything, has done probably the harder job of the two, taking care of the family. Basically in a divorce context has to then say, "Well, hold on because I am dependent on that person. I need some help."

Well, the problem is more and more and more we are seeing men who are saying the exact same thing. I've put a career on hold. I have taken care of kids. I have been a stay at home parent, and now we're going through a divorce. My wife has built a career. I need help. And yet, there is this criticism. There is this at times outrage. "Well, he needs to get a job. He should never ask for that. Let the woman do what she's doing." And that is a very interesting perspective, because in a world where we're trying to say everyone's equal, well that flies directly, at least in my opinion, in the face of everyone's equal.

Leh Meriwether:

And that was the whole point of the YouTuber too was that-

Todd Orston:

That's right.

Leh Meriwether:

Because alimony is the statute in Georgia and I'm pretty sure every single state out there it's gender neutral. Actually there was a point where if I'm remembering correctly, the alimony actually was gender specific. This is decades ago. But I think there was a point where it was gender specific and someone may have filed a suit or something. I know the statute has changed, so it was gender... I'm talking about Georgia right now, was changed so that it was gender neutral.

Todd Orston:

I have a no doubt. I have no doubt because gender roles and the thoughts about gender and the roles that men should have in a relationship in a marriage, you go back decades and I can't even imagine a man having the confidence to go into a divorce situation and say, "But I need to be supported by my wife," because just social norms at the time and just feelings of I don't even know, but that macho, "I'm the man. I should be the breadwinner. This should be my role," going along with all of the other ridiculous norms about the role of a woman. I can't imagine. I think I would be safe if I said I would bet there were no situations where a man said, "I need alimony," but times have dramatically changed.

Leh Meriwether:

Although, but despite... I put air quotes, times having changed, you found an interesting Forbes article and that was from about six years ago or so, but so Money looked at the census and looked at how many men were getting alimony versus women. Tell us about that article.

Todd Orston:

Yeah. So Forbes in 2014 did an article and it really was on this point. And actually the speaker in the article, I mean, in the video you were referencing, he talks about this, but basically at one point they talk about how of 400,000 people in the US who were receiving post divorce spousal maintenance, just 3% were men according to the census. Yet 40% of households were headed by female breadwinners, suggesting that hundreds of thousands of men would be eligible for alimony, yet didn't receive it.

So in other words, looking just at those numbers and of course, that's the problem. If you just look at data in terms of numbers, unfortunately you don't see the whole picture, but just looking at those numbers, clearly there was a situation where many, many women were head of household in terms of income, yet the men, assuming that they were taking care of families, weren't going out and making the request for spousal support and receiving it. I think there are some reasons why the article doesn't go into and that's what we're going to talk about today.

Leh Meriwether:

Yeah. So let's get into it. Well, not that we haven't already gotten into it. Every case is independent. But before I even get into that, I think one of the biggest challenges is not just when it comes to men in general, because men often don't even ask for alimony. And that was the point of the article is that apparently the author of The Honor Code interviewed men, and they didn't even want to ask for alimony.

Actually, they may have gone into the reasons why they didn't ask. One of them was, "Hey, I thought if I didn't ask for alimony, we'd have a better co-parenting relationship." So there are reasons why men don't do it, but I know as an attorney, a lot of the judges out there that I've been in front of over the years, I mean, some of them are becoming less and less alimony friendly anyways, but if you're representing a man asking for alimony... Let me put it this way. Every time I ever represented the breadwinner and the breadwinner was the wife, and if the other side was asking for alimony, the only time I would tell her to concede on that point would be I request for attorney's fees because I've seen the judges absolutely grant that request.

By the way, in Georgia, an award of attorney's fees is considered alimony. So I've seen judges award alimony to the other spouse that's in a different financial position, regardless of gender. But when it comes to post-divorce alimony, I had never seen a judge... Not saying it didn't happen in Georgia, but I had never seen it and we fought it. When I say fought, that's the wrong... We held firm in our position that our client was not going to pay alimony. And when we come back, we're going to continue to talk, have a discussion about, is alimony only for women?

I just wanted to let you know that if you ever wanted to listen to the show live, you can listen at 1:00 AM on Monday Mornings on WSB. So you can always check us out there as well.

Todd Orston:

Better than counting sheep, I guess. Right?

Leh Meriwether:

That's right.

Todd Orston:

You can turn on the show and we'll help you fall asleep.

Leh Meriwether:

There you go.

Todd Orston:

I'll talk very soft.

Leh Meriwether:

Welcome back, everyone. This is Leh and Todd, and we are your co-hosts for Divorce Team Radio, a show sponsored by The Divorce and Family Law Firm of Meriwether & Tharp. If you want to read more about us, you can always check us out online Atlantadivorceteam.com. And if you want to read a transcript of this show or go back and listen to it again, you can find it at divorceteamradio.com.

Well today, we are having a discussion about alimony and in particular, we're having a discussion how, in many ways, even though the statute is gender neutral, it's application traditionally as far as our experience, has not been gender neutral. And in fact, we have found somebody had actually looked at this. I said six, it's actually seven years ago, looked at the census and found that a vast, vast, vast majority of the men don't even ask for alimony when if the gender roles have been reversed, the woman would have been asking for alimony.

So it's very interesting. Where I left off, I was saying, when I represented the... If I were to represent a woman who was the breadwinner and the other side was asking for alimony, we held firm on that. And because unless I had gotten some different information about the judge we may be in front of, but the judges just weren't... It didn't matter if it was a woman or a male judge. They were all of the same opinion... Not opinion. That sounds wrong, but inclination might be the better term to just not award men alimony. And that just had been my experience. So knowing that information, we would hold firm on that and pretty much every time the other side would back down. They would settle without getting alimony.

So it's one of those very interesting situations. Of course, the ex-husband in the Kelly Clarkson... He's not an ex yet, but soon to be ex-husband, Brandon Blackstock, held firm on his position where he wanted spousal support and alimony, and he won it, at least on a temporary basis. So Kelly Clarkson, who according to court documents, makes $1.9 million per month has to pay him roughly $200,000 per month in alimony and child support. So some people who are criticizing the word called it manimony. [inaudible] I'd never heard that before.

Todd Orston:

Me either, but look, let's forget about Kelly's case for a moment, and we've done shows on celebrity and the uber wealthy when they go forward with and go through a divorce. It's a different set of rules, because it's hard for most people to wrap their head around $200,000 until you start analyzing it through that lens of, yeah, but she makes 1.9 million a month and she's living a certain lifestyle that requires money, right?

I mean, I guarantee you they're not living in a double-wide driving a 10 year old Ford Focus. Okay? So they are living a certain lifestyle, a lifestyle you and I and 99.999% of the people in the world can't even fathom. So let's put that aside for a second. And going to experience, I agree with you. It was eyeopening because it doesn't come up very often. Statistically speaking, most of the time when I have to deal with spousal support, I'm representing a wife who has been a stay-at-home mom and needs some level of assistance, but I have had situations and I've had cases where the roles were reversed and there was a wife who had a career, made significant money, and the husband, the father, stayed home. And it was eye opening to me at the time.

One of the other reasons that we felt that this show would be appropriate, that it's very interesting that the pushback in a case that I had where it was clear for, I think in that situation it was about seven to eight years where the husband had not worked and did everything. In other words, that a stay-at-home parents should do, handled all of those responsibilities. And yet, there was significant pushback from every level. I mean, not the court, but leading up to a court appearance, there was significant pushback basically with opposing counsel starting with, "Tell him to go get a job." And my immediate response then, and it has not changed, was, "What do you mean? If roles were reversed and I represented the mother, you wouldn't be saying that to me. You wouldn't be starting out the conversation with, 'He's a man. Tell him to go get a job.'" You'd be saying, "Hey, how long is it going to take? I understand she hasn't been working for a number of years. All right, let's talk about amounts. Let's talk about budget. Let's talk about things."

But starting off with that aggressive, "He's a man." Well, they didn't say that, but basically tell him to go get a job that it was to me mind-blowing. It was, I don't understand the inequality.

Leh Meriwether:

I've heard that statement, grow a pair and get a job.

Todd Orston:

Right. Right.

Leh Meriwether:

And that's a quote. I'm not saying who said, but-

Todd Orston:

And the article goes into that. It goes into some of the reasons and those norms, those gender specific norms that society still embraces to some degree. You're a wife, you are a nurturer, you're a caregiver. You're taking care of the family. And of course the man is the breadwinner and go out and provide. Okay, I understand, but gender norms just because it's thought of as a norm doesn't mean it's right and it definitely doesn't mean it's right now in '21, all right, where basically we have more and more and more women who are... Listen, I mean, let's not even talk about intelligence. I think women are far smarter than we are. So let's put that aside, but there are more and more like my wife who is an exec in a company and they are doing great work, making good money, and what? We're still going to embrace that age old norm and misbelief that men can't provide?

There are men who are caregivers and they are dependent. And that's what it comes down to. That's one thing the article, like I was saying, was missing. Where I'm reading it going, "Okay, I understand the norms. I understand the macho men not wanting to ask for it because I'm a man, I should be able to provide for myself." But more and more courts I think are leaning towards that equality. It's going to take time because the argument is sound and this is what I've found, where it's stop looking at man woman and start thinking about, is there a need? And if we can show that there is a need and that need includes how long will it take you to go out and get a job? But that goes for women as well.

Leh Meriwether:

Right. And that's what I've been seeing too. I've been seeing judges leaning more and more away from alimony. I remember there was a judge in one of our counties, incredibly smart judge, but everyone knew that she was not a fan of alimony. She worked her way up through law school. She raised her kids while she was in law school and had a job. And so her attitude was, "If I can do it, you can do it." She was pretty gender neutral when it came to the application of alimony, but almost no one got alimony in her courtroom. And if it was, the most I ever saw was three years alimony. And that was the most I ever saw from her.

Todd Orston:

[crosstalk] rehabilitative. It was very rehabilitative in terms of [crosstalk] get on your feet.

Leh Meriwether:

Right. Don't be dependent on this other person. Everyone knew her position. They were so aware of it that they would often ask for a jury trial. If the person represented the wife in that case with her as the judge and they knew that literally four doors down there was a judge that in the same scenario would award 18 years of alimony, they would ask for a jury trial. And I'm not kidding about that. And the reason we know that is every year, well, until the pandemic, we had this wonderful thing called a Family Law Conference here in Georgia and one year was a wonderful year where almost the whole... It was three solid days of just all the family law lawyers in the state, not all, but a lot of them got together, like 500 and we learned.

And this particular one had a series of judges get up on the bench and for two days straight, it was just judges panels. And they were getting into hypotheticals and each one of them... It was funny too, because the lawyers had these key pads and then they would pick what they think the outcome should be. And then the judges would state their outcomes and gave their opinions.

And so on the panel, there were two judges from the same county, and this was a large county. I can't remember if it was 10 or 12 superior court judges at the time. So a lot of judges that heard these cases and one of them and on the same fact pattern awarded 18 years of alimony and the other one only three. So that's a very stark difference. And why it's important to talk to a lawyer. I mean, definitely want to hire a lawyer, but if you can't afford one, talk to a lawyer about what alimony might look like with the judge that you have because it makes an enormous difference. And when we come back, we're going to continue our discussion on whether alimony is only for women.

Todd Orston:

Hey everyone, you're listening to our podcast, but you have alternatives. You have choices. You can listen to us live also at 1:00 AM on Monday Morning on WSB.

Leh Meriwether:

If you're joining the show, we would love it if you could go rate us in iTunes or wherever you may be listening to it. Give us a five star rating and tell us why you like the show.

Welcome back, everyone. This is Leh and Todd, and are your co-hosts for Divorce Team Radio, a show sponsored by The Divorce and Family Law Firm of Meriwether & Tharp. If you want to read more about us, you can always check us out online Atlantadivorceteam.com. And if you want to read a transcript of this show or go back and listen to it again, you can find it at Atlantadivorceteam.com.

Well, today we're talking about really the question is, is alimony only for women? Now from a legal perspective, the answer should be no, because the statutes are gender neutral, but we're talking about the practical application that not only have we seen personally, but people have reported on. Forbes did an article several years ago and looking at stats and found that men almost never get alimony or a lot of cases don't even ask for it.

And the whole show was sparked by a roughly $200,000 award of alimony and child support to Brandon Blackstock, the soon to be ex-husband of Kelly Clarkson and how it sparked a lot of outrage that this man got alimony. But there shouldn't be outright. There shouldn't be a surprise. I'm talking about in general from a legal perspective, because the statute's gender neutral. So-

Todd Orston:

Yeah. I mean, let's put it this way because I don't want to be hypocritical. We've done shows before about celebrities and we did an entire show about support demands made by the non-earning spouse in situations like Kelly Clarkson's, where we're talking about they make so much money it's ridiculous. Okay?

Leh Meriwether:

Yeah.

Todd Orston:

And for instance, Britney Spears and K Fed or whatever he calls himself. As you can see, my voice already changes. The contempt in my voice, but where he came in and he was making a demand for a modification of support asking for significantly more. So on one level, on one side, Britney Spears makes tons of money. He's coming in demanding more. The criticism was not about whether 30,000 is too much or 60,000 is too much or whatever. It's all crazy to me, but this was also a situation where he's making these demands. And meanwhile, he's throwing parties and he's doing other things and it wasn't truly child support. He was asking in the context of child support. And so I don't want to be hypocritical because in Kelly's case, listen, if I represented her husband, we'd be doing the same thing. We'd be looking at budgets. We'd be looking at how much money she makes. And then we'd be saying, "Okay, well, hold on. He does have a need. His budget is X."

Meanwhile, most of our clients where we look at a budget, it ain't X. It's a lot lower than X. But his budget with cars and mansions and trips and whatever is going to be much higher. There was another, obviously with Dr. Dre and his divorce. His wife made a request and got, what was it? I think it's like asked for two plus million a year. Okay? Yeah. I mean, ridiculous numbers. Can I live off of that? Yeah, I can and probably I can take care of many of the other people on my street, but I didn't live that lifestyle. So when you start looking at the budget, attorneys are going to... That's what we're going to do. We're going to present to the court an analysis and say, "Hey, here is what their or my client's current budget is and this is therefore what the temporary need is."

And that translates then later to what my client's permanent budget is going to be after post divorce and what the need is going to be. That's where the argument comes in. What is reasonable? What is appropriate? And what does the other party have the ability to pay? And so, but when you're dealing with these big, big, crazy numbers, it's easy for people to look at the number and go, "Can you imagine?" Well, yeah, I can because I've also seen many of the cases where the man... In the traditional gender role, the man was the breadwinner, made millions and millions, and no one even blinked an eye that his wife who was dependent on him made a very sizable request. So what we're really talking about is just the gender equality.

Is there truly gender equality or at every level, social level, legal level? Is there going to be pushback against a man? And should there be pushback against that man who says, "I'm dependent and I need some help?"

Leh Meriwether:

I mean, if we're following the law, there shouldn't be any pushback. And I want to add this too. So I've had scenarios where... Let's say I have a case where the one spouse makes 200,000 and the other spouse makes 100,000. Now, clearly you've got a disparicy, disparity. Disparicy? Disparity.

Todd Orston:

Just make up words. I mean, it's fine. I mean, who's listening, right? I mean, it's-

Leh Meriwether:

[crosstalk] words. So in incomes, a one literally makes twice as much as the other, but in those scenarios, I don't see that as an alimony case because the other one's still making $100,000 a year, which is higher, twice the amount of the average income in the United States. I mean, as we're recording this or maybe as a... Recording it last year, but I haven't looked at the average in a couple years, but from my memory, that's over twice the average personal income of one person in the country. So I don't see that as an alimony case. I see where it comes into play as who takes a greater percentage of perhaps the debts. So if one person's making 200,000, and this is absolutely gender neutral, it doesn't matter whether I'm representing the husband or wife. When I'm looking at someone, the person on the other side and going back to your point, Todd, it's about need. And this person has $100,000 a year in income. They should be able to take care of their needs.

Now, if there's this big debt they accumulated during the course of their marriage, then I think a lot of times people still push for a 50/50 split, but it's not unheard of. So if you represent the man and the man asks for the wife who makes twice as what he does to take on two thirds of the debt and he'll take on a third of the debt, I don't see people really getting upset with that. I mean, they argue about it, not from a, like what we talked about earlier, that gender based response. It's not a gender based response. It's like, "Hey, look, here's where we are. We're just going to split these things 50/50." It's a position people take not based on any sort of traditional gender role position. Am I making sense?

Todd Orston:

Oh no, I mean barely, but yeah.

Leh Meriwether:

I was worried about that.

Todd Orston:

No, no. No, again, it comes down to a number of factors, including budget and all of those things. Look, I also have seen situations where someone comes in... To use your example, 200,000, 100,000. If that $100,000 person is my client, I can almost guarantee you I'm telling them it's a non-alimony case. We can go through the analysis. I can look to see, and I actually had this conversation with someone just a few days ago where what I said to that person was, "Look, if you come in..." I think the numbers were a little bit different to reflect that person's specific situation, but using this, 200 to 100, 100 is going to be enough for you to pay your bills.

Now, if you told me that you make 100 and your spouse makes significantly more, all right? If you make 100 and they make a million or even 500, 600,000 on a temporary basis, might that open up the door to an alimony demand? Yeah, because again, we have to look at the budget. We have to look at what your need is. We have to see is that 100,000 going to be enough to support you at the level that you are used to. And I'm not saying it's a guarantee because the judge might say, "You don't need a third Porsche. You don't need to go on nine trips a year."

But the point is at least the door's open. 200, 100, I can tell you I normally will tell people, "The door's not open, or at least I don't believe so. You may find an attorney who says something different, but then you have to do that cost benefit analysis. How hard am I going to fight? How long am I going to fight? How much money am I going to throw at the fight to get to that answer? Is it worth me spending 15,000 in legal fees to try and get X amount of dollars in monthly support?"

And there's no guarantee, especially if you have significant income already, there's no guarantee that it's going to win. So these are all the things that an attorney's going to start thinking about. You can't just race in and go, "Well, he or she makes more than me. I'm demanding alimony." That doesn't win the day for you.

Leh Meriwether:

And you also have to consider, which was referenced in the article, how much is that battle going to cost you in a co-parenting situation? If you have kids, if you have that knock-down, drag-out battle to get some alimony, is that going to create a lot of tension down the line in your relationship when it comes to your children? I've seen women to have that analysis too when alimony was almost a no brainer for them. They took less because they thought it was important for their long-term co-parenting relationship. When we come back, we're actually going to talk about alimony tips.

I just wanted to let you know that if you ever wanted to listen to the show live, you can listen at 1:00 AM on Monday Mornings on WSB. So you can always check us out there as well.

Todd Orston:

Better than counting sheep, I guess. Right?

Leh Meriwether:

That's right.

Todd Orston:

You can turn on the show and we'll help you fall asleep.

Leh Meriwether:

There you go.

Todd Orston:

I'll talk very soft.

Leh Meriwether:

Welcome back, everyone. This is Leh and Todd, and we are your co-hosts for Divorce Team Radio, a show sponsored by The Divorce and Family Law Firm of Meriwether & Tharp. If you want to read more about us, you can always check us out online Atlantadivorceteam.com. And if you want to read a transcript of this show or go back and listen to it again, you can find it at divorceteamradio.com.

Todd Orston:

All right. So let's talk about tips. By that I want to preface it with these are tips that would apply to a stay-at-home mom, a stay-at-home dad. I mean, some of the tips are going to be more focused on that gender issue, but again, this show, and I'm not trying to be defensive here, but we're not pushing for men to ask for alimony. That's not what this is about. It is simply us talking about a reality, a reality that roles have changed over the years, meaning there are more men who are stay-at-home mom... Stay-at-home moms. Stay-at-home parents.

And yet, for some reason, either in their own minds or in the minds of others, there's still this expectation that you should be self-supporting. Even though you have taken on certain roles in the family, that you should not be able to or should ask for any kind of spousal support from your partner. So these are tips that I'm trying to be gender blind. So number one, I would probably start with it's all about the budget. Start there. Put all these other thoughts aside in terms of, first of all, if you are the mom, obviously it's about the budget.

It's about what are you going to need in order to survive financially speaking? And focus on that. But if you are the father, number one, focus on your budget. Show why you need what you say you need. And if you can focus on that budget, if you can prove that you have a need and don't have access to the funds necessary to support yourself, that's going to be the step, the most important step that you take, because that's going to be the evidence that you need to convince even a judge, especially a judge who might have these preconceived notions regarding gender and support to prove to that judge, "Hey Judge, I need some help," because that's what alimony at its core is. It's financial help. And so if you focus on the right things like budget, that's going to put you in a good position to argue successfully to opposing counsel, opposing party, and even a judge that, "Hey, Judge, I need some help here." And we've won that argument numerous times.

Leh Meriwether:

I think the secondary thing, so that would be the first is putting together your budget, showing what your need is. I think there is a secondary element that you absolutely... It's probably as important as the first that you need to have to overcome what I might call a gender bias. And that is gather your proof that you really were the stay-at-home dad. And what I mean by that is, let's put this way. I've seen cases where a dad claimed to be the stay-at-home dad, but then when you start looking at the school records and the medical records, he never took the kids to the doctor. It was the wife, while at work, would pick up the phone, would call and schedule the pediatrician appointments and take time off from work to take the kids that a pediatrician.

And there was days where the dad actually dropped the kids off at daycare so he could go play golf or something. So-

Todd Orston:

So it's focus on stayed home, not dad.

Leh Meriwether:

Right, right. Exactly. And so in this scenario, when that evidence came out, the lawyer on the other side backed off his request for alimony because the position was, yeah, he may have been a stay-at-home dad or a stay-at-home husband, but he wasn't a stay-at-home dad. You know what I mean?

Todd Orston:

That's right.

Leh Meriwether:

He wasn't a stay-at-home parent. Let's just use a gender neutral term. He was not a stay-at-home parent. He was not parenting where you flip the scenario and often you see the mom. When you see the stay-at-home mom, she really was doing all the stay-at-home mom... The parent stuff. School, making sure the kids are getting their homework in on time, going to the parent teacher conferences. Of course, make sure the husband knew about when it was going to be, so the husband could be there. Just because you have a need, if the reason you've been staying at home because, and I hate... This is from a judge. So don't bash the messenger, if you are being lazy and just not getting a job, but the other parent who has a full-time job is also doing most of the parenting duties, you're probably not going to get alimony.

Todd Orston:

Yeah. And that's a really good point because we've seen that quite often actually. And even in more traditional situations where it is clear that the stay-at-home mom, the kids are 14 and 17, and the kids are rarely at home. And the argument in front of the court is, "Well, I need to be there for the kids." And it's like, "The kids are never there. They are kind of self-supporting." And by the way, on the flip side, dad who is working is also coaching and doing X and doing Y. I'm going to hone your statement to say you have to make sure you hone your argument and you have the right facts to support your claim.

You need to make sure that you are going in there and able to prove, "Hey, I am working for this family. I am doing everything I can to keep the family moving forward and keep the kids healthy and fed and dealing with their medical needs, their educational needs, everything." Because if it is just an issue of laziness, that's going to come into play.

Leh Meriwether:

Right. And so, another thing to think about would be, and I really have seen this before where the husband was truly the stay-at-home, not just parent, but they were the support for the wife. The wife just had a better career opportunity. A decision was made in the family that the husband was going to take on the primary parent role, but that also meant the primary support role for the wife, which you traditionally see in a reversed way. So he took care of all the dry cleaning. So he made sure his wife always had the right suits or what she was wearing for work in her professional setting. He took care of the dry cleaning. He had the food ready on the table. He actually cooked the dinners. Sometimes he'd put together lunches for his wife to have so she didn't eat out.

So there was this incredible supportive role there, not just in a parenting role, but a support for the spouse role and the [inaudible] scenario. I mean, sometimes I've seen cases where the wife still didn't want to pay alimony, but you saw her give a greater portion of the marital estate instead, which in some scenarios is more advantageous because... Well, and this is before they changed the tax laws. But years ago, alimony was tax deductible and it was taxable to the recipient.

And so receiving equitable division, a greater portion of the estate, let's say you got an extra 100 grand out of the sale of the home, that's more advantageous than receiving $100,000 in alimony because there's no taxes on the money out of the sale of the home. So there's always if you have that support put together, maybe you don't get alimony, but you get a greater portion of the equitable division.

And again, going back to, Todd, your first statement, it's so important to understand your budget, because once you understand your financial situation, then maybe you negotiate for a greater portion of the marital estate instead of alimony.

Todd Orston:

Yeah. And the final tip that I would say is whether we're dealing with a husband, wife, mother, father, man, woman, put issues of gender aside, really focus on that need because too many times I see situations where someone for various reasons decide not to go and fight for alimony that they do desperately need, budgetarily speaking it. And then they get themselves into trouble.

If it's a man, because of some sense of ego, not going to ask for it or a woman because she just wants to get through the case. Whatever the case might be, whatever the situation might be, put those things aside. When we say focus on your budget, I mean, truly focus on your budget. I'm not trying to belabor the point, but if you have a need, understand that need's not going to go away simply because you ignore it, simply because you don't make that request. We've seen too many people get hurt by doing that.

Leh Meriwether:

Exactly. So I think today was a good day, Todd.

Todd Orston:

I think so too. I mean, I do have one final tip.

Leh Meriwether:

All right.

Todd Orston:

Yeah. Become a pop star. I suggest that for everybody. I don't know how practical that tip is, but if you can suddenly make... I'll be honest with you. I'm going to start singing as soon as this show is over, because-

Leh Meriwether:

Just wait until it's over with because nobody will listen to us again.

Todd Orston:

I really want to make 1.9 million a month.

Leh Meriwether:

That would be nice.

Todd Orston:

I think I could pay some bills.

Leh Meriwether:

Yeah and I wouldn't mind paying alimony if I was making that much.

Todd Orston:

That's right. Exactly. Well, all right. That's my only tip.

Leh Meriwether:

Good tip. Everyone, thanks so much for listening. I hope that you got something out of this conversation and hopefully you're not having to go through a divorce, but if you are, hope you got something out of this conversation and thanks so much for listening.